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This is a discussion on sti vs new M3 within the Comparison: WRX vs World forums, part of the Community - Meet other Enthusiasts category; Originally posted by Silver04Sti Ok....enough horse s***.....this will be the only magazine racing I do on this thread but I'm ...

  1. #46
    Registered User DEADPOOL's Avatar
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    Re: enough

    Originally posted by Silver04Sti
    Ok....enough horse s***.....this will be the only magazine racing I do on this thread but I'm sick of the "it can't be realistic to win a race with a mighty m3", let's look at some magazines I have in my possession for what its worth:

    if you look at the September 1 '03 issue of Autoweek there is a write up about the Sti....and within that article the quote is as follows: "It's also three-tenths of a second better than the BMW M3 and four-tenths of a second better than the Mercedes AMG C32, both of which we tested last year".........

    Motor Trend June 03" Sti 4.87/13.23
    It did not have road test results in that issue but the mar 03 showed the m3 at 5.0/13.4.

    Car and Driver June 03 Sti 4.6/13.2
    Car and Driver Dec 02 BMW M3 4.8/13.4

    Based on those stats, why is it sooooo unbelievable that an sti can take an m3 even if the m3 has more hp? Excluding the above, if you consider the Sport Compact thread where a stock sti ran 12.75 and 12.79 respectively in two runs, why is it such a shock? Not familiar with an m3 running 12's stock. I've seen no magazine to show stock times in that range, none!
    What you guys are missing in your "not realistic" argument is torque. Its torque that really propels a car, not hp so although the m3 has more crank hp than the sti the stats above show that an "underpowered" car can take the higher hp m3 based on torque. I would love to see a torque to torque curve comparison of the two cars. Hell, even in previous posts m3 guys complained about the low end torque of the car.
    Yes, its embarrassing that a 60K car can get beat by a car at half the cost but the statistics i've seen thus far for comparison have only supported that argument.
    So if the guy from Lauderdale can get a few takers to run his "superior" vehicle, that's great.....I hope there is some data on this match up but from what i've seen and actually done myself against the same car (in my 02) I would venture to say that its the m3 owners who will be surprised by the results.
    Well if you wanna do mag racing then the best an M3 ran was a 13.1 with a 0-60 of 4.7. Also if youre refering to me as the owner of the "Superior vehicle" you have me mistaken, i dont own an M3. But i have a friend who is interested to see a race between his M3 and the STI. We all know that off the line the STI has it. But what is not so clear is the roll on race, i think it will be close and that nobody is going to hand anyone there ass rather its going to be ending with maybe a car length between the two IMO. Both are great cars and i think we should do a roll on with them to settle this.
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  3. #47
    Registered User FrankW's Avatar
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    Re: Re: enough

    Originally posted by DEADPOOL
    Well if you wanna do mag racing then the best an M3 ran was a 13.1 with a 0-60 of 4.7. Also if youre refering to me as the owner of the "Superior vehicle" you have me mistaken, i dont own an M3. But i have a friend who is interested to see a race between his M3 and the STI. We all know that off the line the STI has it. But what is not so clear is the roll on race, i think it will be close and that nobody is going to hand anyone there ass rather its going to be ending with maybe a car length between the two IMO. Both are great cars and i think we should do a roll on with them to settle this.
    word!

    magazine racing, the C32's best time were 4.7 and 13.2 1/4 mile. Even the new S4 ran 4.99 in that recent issue of MotorTrend.

    how is it embrassing that the M3 can get beat by the STi with a cheaper msrp? At the end of the day, the M3 is still more luxurious and can be a sports car at the same time. It's like saying a modded Supra can beat a F355, but at the end of the day the other guy still has a Ferrari.
    Last edited by FrankW; 09-20-2003 at 01:26 PM.
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  4. #48
    Registered User Silver04Sti's Avatar
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    Re: Re: Re: enough

    Originally posted by FrankW
    word!

    magazine racing, the C32's best time were 4.7 and 13.2 1/4 mile. Even the new S4 ran 4.99 in that recent issue of MotorTrend.

    how is it embrassing that the M3 can get beat by the STi with a cheaper msrp? At the end of the day, the M3 is still more luxurious and can be a sports car at the same time. It's like saying a modded Supra can beat a F355, but at the end of the day the other guy still has a Ferrari.

    So what's your point, the C32 ran a 13.2 best......versus a best i've seen of the sti at 12.75?....not sure what you are trying to say by that........I guess the embarassing part is aimed more at the pompous ass bmw owners that think their cars cannot be beat......i've spanked many of them over the past 2 years and they generally are the ones with the most "shocked" looks on their faces when they lose to a subaru......and I'm talking about all brands of cars I've raced....bmw owners are usually the ones who are shocked and mislead by the image of the "ultimate driving machine" and can't quite grasp why they get their asses spanked by little 4 cylinder sub's. I guess you misunderstood my post, I am not an advocate of "i've got a $3K crx with an nsx engine and nos beating your 120k 911T".......that is not my point in what I said....I'm talking stock for stock, not some "modded supra beating a ferrari as you say"......I'm just saying that the bmw owners I have run across in the past few years need an attitude adjustment.....and if it takes a "stock" 30K car to do that, then so be it.
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  5. #49
    Registered User Silver04Sti's Avatar
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    Re: Re: enough

    Originally posted by DEADPOOL
    Well if you wanna do mag racing then the best an M3 ran was a 13.1 with a 0-60 of 4.7. Also if youre refering to me as the owner of the "Superior vehicle" you have me mistaken, i dont own an M3. But i have a friend who is interested to see a race between his M3 and the STI. We all know that off the line the STI has it. But what is not so clear is the roll on race, i think it will be close and that nobody is going to hand anyone there ass rather its going to be ending with maybe a car length between the two IMO. Both are great cars and i think we should do a roll on with them to settle this.

    You seem to be the advocate of the m3 scene on this forum so if you are not an owner than perhaps there are some on this forum in Fl that can step up and accept your challenge.
    Look, I can only speak from my personal experience.....just as whomever in Fl that might drag will only be able to speak from theirs....but in my old modded 02 I took a newer m3 and I don't give a **** who might call b.s because i know that it happened. I also believe that my sti pulls harder than my old car so hence I think that an sti could pull an m3, should I be proved wrong, that's cool.......but my "gut reaction" tells me otherwise. So why doesn't everyone stop posting comments and let's get 5-10 cars to run each other. Then we can shut this argument up once and for all. I am sticking to my argument that a sti can take an m3......so show me i'm wrong......if a m3 owner is in ct and wants to put up 1/10 of that data then pm me and we will arrange a nice contest.......I figure if we can get 5-10 runs with different people we can get a good idea of where this "thread" really stands.
    I'm even a ****ty driver so I'm giving you bmw guys an easy 1/10 advantage by running me.....then throughout the country you will only need 9/10 more to prove you are superior for all that extra cash you paid.
    Last edited by Silver04Sti; 09-20-2003 at 05:20 PM.
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    Registered User DEADPOOL's Avatar
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    Re: Re: Re: enough

    Originally posted by Silver04Sti
    You seem to be the advocate of the m3 scene on this forum so if you are not an owner than perhaps there are some on this forum in Fl that can step up and accept your challenge.
    Look, I can only speak from my personal experience.....just as whomever in Fl that might drag will only be able to speak from theirs....but in my old modded 02 I took a newer m3 and I don't give a **** who might call b.s because i know that it happened. I also believe that my sti pulls harder than my old car so hence I think that an sti could pull an m3, should I be proved wrong, that's cool.......but my "gut reaction" tells me otherwise. So why doesn't everyone stop posting comments and let's get 5-10 cars to run each other. Then we can shut this argument up once and for all. I am sticking to my argument that a sti can take an m3......so show me i'm wrong......if a m3 owner is in ct and wants to put up 1/10 of that data then pm me and we will arrange a nice contest.......I figure if we can get 5-10 runs with different people we can get a good idea of where this "thread" really stands.
    I'm even a ****ty driver so I'm giving you bmw guys an easy 1/10 advantage by running me.....then throughout the country you will only need 9/10 more to prove you are superior for all that extra cash you paid.
    From experience with my car having 255whp, i had the M3 take me by a few lengths, and the StI has similar WHP to mine, most STI's are dynoing at 250-260whp. They have a little more torque then me but no tenough to walk an M3. Also learn to read, i said i dont have an M3 but that i have a guy who has one and wants to race an STI to see what would happen. It will be a very close race plain and simple.
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  7. #51
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    Re: Re: Re: Re: enough

    Originally posted by Silver04Sti
    So what's your point, the C32 ran a 13.2 best......versus a best i've seen of the sti at 12.75?....not sure what you are trying to say by that........I guess the embarassing part is aimed more at the pompous ass bmw owners that think their cars cannot be beat......i've spanked many of them over the past 2 years and they generally are the ones with the most "shocked" looks on their faces when they lose to a subaru......and I'm talking about all brands of cars I've raced....bmw owners are usually the ones who are shocked and mislead by the image of the "ultimate driving machine" and can't quite grasp why they get their asses spanked by little 4 cylinder sub's. I guess you misunderstood my post, I am not an advocate of "i've got a $3K crx with an nsx engine and nos beating your 120k 911T".......that is not my point in what I said....I'm talking stock for stock, not some "modded supra beating a ferrari as you say"......I'm just saying that the bmw owners I have run across in the past few years need an attitude adjustment.....and if it takes a "stock" 30K car to do that, then so be it.
    the point was, in the real world you don't have multiple tries to get a good launch to get those times. With one mistake, you are done, even an Accord V6 can beat you. I got beat by an Accord once when I forgot to ease of the gas off the line when I have my ESP on. Not many people can pull off what the magazines did in their test. Edmond's review probably has the most accurate time when you put an average driver behind the wheel.

    slogans are just slogans, at least BMW's not pointing out the obvious like Subaru with their "driven by what's inside" and what does Lance Armstrong has to do with cars?

    I can say that most of the guys/girls in the BMW you've beat only know that they bought a BMW and don't know what other cars can do.
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  8. #52
    Registered User Silver04Sti's Avatar
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    Re: Re: Re: Re: enough

    Originally posted by DEADPOOL
    From experience with my car having 255whp, i had the M3 take me by a few lengths, and the StI has similar WHP to mine, most STI's are dynoing at 250-260whp. They have a little more torque then me but no tenough to walk an M3. Also learn to read, i said i dont have an M3 but that i have a guy who has one and wants to race an STI to see what would happen. It will be a very close race plain and simple.

    Are you trying to piss people off? "learn to read"......why don't you learn to read, I can read a signature and if you "read" my post you would have seen I said: "You seem to be the advocate of the m3 scene on this forum so if you are not an owner than perhaps there are some on this forum in Fl that can step up and accept your challenge.
    I saw that you said your friend had the m3 and was looking for sti challengers so I was addressing that. Not sure why you had to contemplate that I could not comprehend that message. Lame!
    Who cares if you have 255whp.....let's see your torque output. I know that a stock wrx is not 227/227 unlike the sti with 300/300.......i've had both, a wrx.....modded, and an sti and in my opinion my sti is stronger in the lower rpm's in terms of its ability to pull hard. Have you driven an sti?
    I beat a new m3 with my OLD car and I suspect that my sti will take one as well.....that's my opinion and until I see a number of statistical posts showing m3 guys spanking sti's then I will continue that opinion......Now if you and your skippy buddies in the m3 can prove me wrong so be it but let's see 10-20 cars of each caliber take a nice run and see the outcome.
    Kinda like it would be easy for someone to say that maybe you should get out of your car and let someone else run it against that m3 that beat you.....see.....kinda pisses you off now doesn't it?.......i'll tell you what.....i have an sti in ct that is ready to run an m3....i'm even a ****ty driver so i'm basically giving away 1/10 of the 10 car runs that I would like to gather stats on...i'm giving you bmw guys 1 easy win to race me..........my hunch is that even with my loss (assuming I suck so bad I lose) that you will still see an sti win when one looks across the board with an average of 10-20 or so races. If not, then cool...this thread is dead and can go away but like I said before I think it will be bmw guys who are shocked by the results.
    Guys in Fl.....prove me wrong........that's all i'm saying.....I just find it funny that in many of the posts people act like its not even possible when statistics from many mag's show that its quite possible indeed. Having beaten one myself I laugh even harder cause I know it can be done.
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  9. #53
    Registered User Silver04Sti's Avatar
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    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: enough

    Originally posted by FrankW
    the point was, in the real world you don't have multiple tries to get a good launch to get those times. With one mistake, you are done, even an Accord V6 can beat you. I got beat by an Accord once when I forgot to ease of the gas off the line when I have my ESP on. Not many people can pull off what the magazines did in their test. Edmond's review probably has the most accurate time when you put an average driver behind the wheel.

    slogans are just slogans, at least BMW's not pointing out the obvious like Subaru with their "driven by what's inside" and what does Lance Armstrong has to do with cars?

    I can say that most of the guys/girls in the BMW you've beat only know that they bought a BMW and don't know what other cars can do.
    That depends, sometimes you find that people do better than in the magazines. No magazine showed an sti at 12.75 and 12.79 in two runs but Sport Compact Car tested it at that. So does that mean that all other magazines are morons or that perhaps they had ideal conditions and their drivers took maximum advantage of the cars potential at that exact moment?
    As far as slogans, you have to admit that if a company is cocky enough to label a car the "ultimate driving machine" they best be ready to BACK that up in every case.......regular wrx's spank their 3 series cars....only the 330ci has a prayer......and with the sti the m3 has serious competition and the sti takes their flagship m5.....the new forrester xt will take most bmw's now...........so who cares about slogans.....
    you harp on cars beating cars by not getting perfect launches....v6 accords beating cars...blah blah.....in the case of my beating a new m3 in my 02 modded wrx, maybe this guy did not bring his "a" game and shifted to 4th when he meant 3rd but either way he got spanked so who's error is that? I have no idea what the guy did but he got beat.
    What do you suggest, we all run only from a nice "slow" clutch release at idle and only time those events?
    Last edited by Silver04Sti; 09-20-2003 at 08:41 PM.
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    and with the sti the m3 has serious competition and the sti takes their flagship m5
    The M5 and M3 are actually about even. Most BMW enthusiasts claim the M5 actually has the nod in a strait line.
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  12. #56
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    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: enough

    Originally posted by Silver04Sti
    That depends, sometimes you find that people do better than in the magazines. No magazine showed an sti at 12.75 and 12.79 in two runs but Sport Compact Car tested it at that. So does that mean that all other magazines are morons or that perhaps they had ideal conditions and their drivers took maximum advantage of the cars potential at that exact moment?
    As far as slogans, you have to admit that if a company is cocky enough to label a car the "ultimate driving machine" they best be ready to BACK that up in every case.......regular wrx's spank their 3 series cars....only the 330ci has a prayer......and with the sti the m3 has serious competition and the sti takes their flagship m5.....the new forrester xt will take most bmw's now...........so who cares about slogans.....
    you harp on cars beating cars by not getting perfect launches....v6 accords beating cars...blah blah.....in the case of my beating a new m3 in my 02 modded wrx, maybe this guy did not bring his "a" game and shifted to 4th when he meant 3rd but either way he got spanked so who's error is that? I have no idea what the guy did but he got beat.
    What do you suggest, we all run only from a nice "slow" clutch release at idle and only time those events?
    where did sports compact car tested their cars? Drag strip? Most of the magazines do their test on the different test track, not the drag strip where layers of rubber has already been layed and traction's always better than test track. There's a lot of different factor that can limit a car's ability. On the drag strip there's people with stock M3s running mid-high 12s. There's even people with stock C32s running mid-high 12s. BUT what are the chance that you ran into one of those 5% maybe 10% of people that really knows how to drive their car without damaging it.

    I think you are getting it wrong. Regular Impreza = RS(and lesser model), the WRX in term is much like the M3 in the model line-up. The STi would be BMW's M3 CSL. Try pitting the M3 CSL against the STi on the track. The STi will get spanked left and right and off the line. If people want to compare, why not compare top of the line vs top of the line then make your way down the list. Yeah, sure the 2003 STi can take the 1998/99 technology M5 by a little. Don't forget the M5 is moving 4000lbs of steel and luxury items that the STi will never have. How about pitting the 2003 RS6 or 2003 E55 AMG against the STi would you think that's fair? since they are both M5's competitor. The slowest of the two ran 4.3 second 0-60.

    btw BMW do live up to their "ultimate driving machine" slogan. Years in racing F1s, Le Man 24hr, GT races, prototypes, and DTMs. They also do provide much sports car to the public as well. 330i Performance Pkg, M3, M3 CSL, M5, M roadster/coupe, and Z8. People don't buy the 325i/Ci/Xi because they want performance, they buy'em because it's a nice entry level luxury car with sportiness in mind. Beside BMW has been using this slogan for years since I can remember'em.

    last thing is that people buy different cars for different reasons. When you have $60k to spend would you take a M3 or a STi? I'm sure you'll say the STi and spend the rest of the money on mods. For me, and I'm sure a lot of people will take the M3 in a heart beat, why!? because it is a M3, a luxury coupe, a sports car, and a car from a much more respected brand all in one. You don't have to sacrifice one bit of comfort or luxury to enjoy your drive in the M3.
    Last edited by FrankW; 09-21-2003 at 04:31 AM.
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  13. #57
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    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: enough

    Originally posted by FrankW
    where did sports compact car tested their cars? Drag strip?

    I think you are getting it wrong. Regular Impreza = RS(and lesser model), the WRX in term is much like the M3 in the model line-up. The STi would be BMW's M3 CSL. Try pitting the M3 CSL against the STi on the track. The STi will get spanked left and right and off the line. If people want to compare, why not compare top of the line vs top of the line then make your way down the list.

    last thing is that people buy different cars for different reasons. When you have $60k to spend would you take a M3 or a STi? I'm sure you'll say the STi and spend the rest of the money on mods. For me, and I'm sure a lot of people will take the M3 in a heart beat, why!? because it is a M3, a luxury coupe, a sports car, and a car from a much more respected brand all in one. You don't have to sacrifice one bit of comfort or luxury to enjoy your drive in the M3.

    As far as the Sport compact test someone here can answer that but for some reason a road course is sticking in my head because it was an EVO/STI comparision and not a drag strip......anyone remember that thread about a month or so ago with the feed from the actual audio and all from the test? Do a search for sti/evo and listen to the reporters yourself.

    NO....you are getting it wrong because this thread was started by comparing an STI to an M3. Not sti vs e55's, enzos, and 911t's. Take a look at all the previous posts until you had to chime in with your C32 post halfway down the third page. It was all about an m3 and sti up until that point. I only mentioned the M5 because I was talking about bmw models in general and saying that wrx/sti's can take most of them and that their owners are among the most cocky people I have come across. How does that imply that an sti must face and beat RS6's or E55's to have a valid race? You saying now that an m3 is not a worthy competitor? lol......this thread is pointless

    I agree to what you are saying, people buy different cars for different reasons. I like the performance an sti gives me for 30K just as I liked my 23K wrx for the same reason. I get alot of snow and the subaru's have never let me down when the weather gets crappy. Plus, the sti was not built to focus on the m3, it is a rally car at heart but its performance begs those comparisions.
    Actually you're wrong, If given 60K I might not buy an sti. If I had that cash that I could dedicate entirely to a car I'm sure I would look around at other cars in the higher price ranges but for the money I presently have to spend on the car, I'm quite happy with the sti. Just as you try to bring an argument about "its not luxury" like the m3, yea, maybe that's true but you are also paying for that luxury. Just as if I had 120K and got a new sl600 then I would be paying for that luxury. You don't get leather in the sti but you don't pay for the leather either. For 30K I think its fair to say that you get one hell of a performance oriented car. Maybe you should go out and drive one and perhaps it will change your viewpoint.
    Last edited by Silver04Sti; 09-21-2003 at 07:44 AM.
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    Moderator WilliamG's Avatar
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    Good grief guys.....take it easy!

    This obviously isn't going to get proven with words. Someone get an M3 out and race an STi. You know what? It still wouldn't prove anything since one driver is not the same as another! So let's move on now, ok?

    Please? Pretty please?
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    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: enough

    Originally posted by Silver04Sti


    NO....you are getting it wrong because this thread was started by comparing an STI to an M3. Not sti vs e55's, enzos, and 911t's. Take a look at all the previous posts until you had to chime in with your C32 post halfway down the third page. It was all about an m3 and sti up until that point. I only mentioned the M5 because I was talking about bmw models in general and saying that wrx/sti's can take most of them and that their owners are among the most cocky people I have come across. How does that imply that an sti must face and beat RS6's or E55's to have a valid race? You saying now that an m3 is not a worthy competitor? lol......this thread is pointless

    I agree to what you are saying, people buy different cars for different reasons. I like the performance an sti gives me for 30K just as I liked my 23K wrx for the same reason. I get alot of snow and the subaru's have never let me down when the weather gets crappy. Plus, the sti was not built to focus on the m3, it is a rally car at heart but its performance begs those comparisions.
    Actually you're wrong, If given 60K I might not buy an sti. If I had that cash that I could dedicate entirely to a car I'm sure I would look around at other cars in the higher price ranges but for the money I presently have to spend on the car, I'm quite happy with the sti. Just as you try to bring an argument about "its not luxury" like the m3, yea, maybe that's true but you are also paying for that luxury. Just as if I had 120K and got a new sl600 then I would be paying for that luxury. You don't get leather in the sti but you don't pay for the leather either. For 30K I think its fair to say that you get one hell of a performance oriented car. Maybe you should go out and drive one and perhaps it will change your viewpoint.
    whoa, take it easy, man! did you not see the smilies on my first post in this thread. No wonder DEADPOOL ask you to read his post again. FYI, I throw my car in there as a magazine racing joke if you don't get it.

    how is the M5 = BMW in general? You said "STi can take the flagship M5" then adds "even the new Forrester XT will take most BMWs now" How's that not trying to imply Subaru are the best. How am I getting it wrong? A WRX in other parts of the world is not the same as our wimpy US version. A WRX would easily be the competitor for the M3 in terms of performance and it's position in the Impreza lineup, it has been used to compare it with the M3 and getting beat on the track. So naturally when the new STi comes out they want to put it next to the M3 and compare, but the M3 is not the most extreme version like the STi is to the WRX. There's the M3 CSL for that.

    So you do think it's not fair to compare the RS6 and the E55 to the STi. Would it be fair to compare the sports version of the Impreza to regular 3-series? In this case WRX vs 3-series in general like you said.

    In conclusion, the STi would or could beat the regular M3, but not the most extreme M3, the CSL.

    btw, I never said I don't like the WRX STi. It's a great car for the money, that's for sure, but I'd still take EVO8 over the STi because it's cheaper.

    laterz...
    Nothing but good ol' replicas...on my good ol' poser c240

  16. #60
    Registered User Silver04Sti's Avatar
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    enough

    Originally posted by WilliamG
    Good grief guys.....take it easy!

    This obviously isn't going to get proven with words. Someone get an M3 out and race an STi. You know what? It still wouldn't prove anything since one driver is not the same as another! So let's move on now, ok?

    Please? Pretty please?
    you're right....this entire thread is pointless.....it started with someone asking about an sti vs an m3 and evolved into all this nonsense........Frank doesn't understand what I'm saying and I obviously don't see his point of view either so enough already. Next thing you know we will be arguing over the blue seats in sti and how the leather in the m3 is better. I feel the m3/sti is a good comparison and that if you are talking comparing 3 series cars I think the wrx/330ci are good competitors. The stats support a decent matchup in both cases. If to make yourself feel better you want to throw in the sti vs the csl that's cool....I guess you're saying the normal m3 already with 33 more hp than a stock sti is not enough so you have to throw in the csl so that the bmw can have a 60 hp advantage...if that helps you validate your argument so be it. I have not read much on the csl but I'd like to see stats just out of curiosity.....for braking, slalom, skidpad, and of course acceleration. Have em?
    I originally posted on this thread because I felt an sti could take an m3. That's my opinion. Like you say, one race won't prove anything either because its just 2 drivers facing off. That's why I simply suggested a few posts back that we should line up 10-20 of them and then we could at least have some reasonable data to work with to make an educated assumption.
    And for the record, I never said that the m3 was an inferior car or that I believed Sub's were superior autos as is suggested....my point was that the sti/wrx/forrester XT all offer performance that bmw owners should not take lightly.
    My thought is we let the issue resolve itself as more m3's encounter sti's at the stoplights.
    Last edited by Silver04Sti; 09-21-2003 at 02:27 PM.
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    SOLD 7/05----04 Silver STI
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