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This is a discussion on New M3 impressions within the Comparison: WRX vs World forums, part of the Community - Meet other Enthusiasts category; Originally posted by DEADPOOL Uh the E36 had a 6 as well. Also dangrass, i dont consider mercedes cars etc ...

  1. #46
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    Originally posted by DEADPOOL
    Uh the E36 had a 6 as well.

    Also dangrass, i dont consider mercedes cars etc to be of german quality. They are owned by ford(POS company). But BMW tend to be ok, when i talk about build quality im not talking about just the engine. But overall quality is greater. When it comes to accidents etc american cars can rarely compete with the strength of the germans. I remember reading an article where there was an accident between a Ford (i think an f-150) and a BMW 5 series. Basically the truck went into oncoming traffic at about 50 MPH with the BMW doing roughly the same speed. When the hit, the BMW destroyed the truck sending the trucks engine up into the cockpit killing the driver(im pretty sure he died). The BMW had very little damage to the cockpit, and the driver walked away.

    And then you have porsche possibly the strongest sports cars on earth. Who else can go into the Dacar rally for the first time and win with a sports car they use on the street(959).
    Ford owns Mercedes? I don't think so. Daimler Benz recently bought Chrysler.....Ford does own Volvo...is that what you meant?

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  3. #47
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    Originally posted by Integra96
    I wasn't aware of Ford owning Mercedes.

    I agree that the E36 was more of a razor while the E46 is now a sharp butter knife - but butter knives rule! I'm a huge fan of all 'M' cars and I think BMW will sharpen the next-gen M3 to compete with sleeker sports cars from other manufacturers.

    dangrass: that's interesting stuff you said about the 3.2L I-6. I always thought the engine was remarkably smooth and easily capable of high-rpm operation. The long stroke part makes sense, but the I-6 architecture lends itself to stability and lack of destructive harmonics, no? I think BMW should stick with inline motors as long as possible - they're the greatest.
    Inline 6's are very nice in that they are very smooth. The problem they have is that they are very long and as a result tend to have crankshaft flexing issues....in addition to packaging issues. For the same displacement you could have a V or flat 6 (think Porsche!) that is significantly shorter with a significantly shorter crank...which is a real advantage. The packaging issue is also a problem in that it requires a lot of room and it's difficult to mount an inline 6 anywhere but far from the center of the car. A V or flat configuration has many advantages over an inline 6, but smoothness isn't one of them.

    The other issue has to do with piston speed. I don't have the numbers handy at the moment, but the new M3 has a really high piston speed due to the long stroke coupled with an 8k RPM redline. This creates enormous bearing/rod loads which really diminish the long-term reliabibily potential for these motors. By comparison a WRX or Porsche motor is a far better design for maximum performance with margin.

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    Knowing that folks would ask I dug up the specs and ran some calculations for piston speeds. I compared the M3 to a Boxster S to a WRX with the results as follow: (max piston speeds)

    WRX- 3,444 ft/min at 7k
    Boxster- 3,685 at 7.2k
    M3- 4,776 at 8k

    Up until recently a street engine with a piston speed of > that 4k ft/min would have been unthinkable...and most manufacturers still keep piston speeds under 4k ft/min for something that would be expected to run 100k miles+. Even sportbikes with 15k RPM redlines don't have piston speeds that approach those of the current M3. When you combine a very long crankshaft with really high piston speeds there is not much room for error...or further development. Probably why there were so many catastrophic faillures of E46 motors.

  5. #49
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    Good post! That's very interesting stuff; I never thought about the I-6 in that way. Maybe BMW should have considered a more "square" engine to calm down those piston speeds? That may kill torque, however. A small V8 is starting to look like a better replacement. It would be cool if they kept it under 3.5L though to keep the M3 from becoming a bloated whale like most cars become after 12+ years of service.
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  6. #50
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    Originally posted by Integra96
    Good post! That's very interesting stuff; I never thought about the I-6 in that way. Maybe BMW should have considered a more "square" engine to calm down those piston speeds? That may kill torque, however. A small V8 is starting to look like a better replacement. It would be cool if they kept it under 3.5L though to keep the M3 from becoming a bloated whale like most cars become after 12+ years of service.
    My bet is that the M3 will have a small V8 in the near future....not unlike the new S4.

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    omg.....i'm a f***ing idiot, i just remembered that the m3 does have a i6. sorry for soundin so stupid


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  8. #52
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    Originally posted by MOG_22
    eh....why did you post this twice dude?
    Thats a good question, one to which i do not have the answer . Not sure how that happened bujt ill delete it now. Thanks for pointing that out.
    "Celebrate we will, for life is short but sweet for certain"-DMB

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  9. #53
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    Originally posted by DEADPOOL
    Uh the E36 had a 6 as well.

    Also dangrass, i dont consider mercedes cars etc to be of german quality. They are owned by ford(POS company). But BMW tend to be ok, when i talk about build quality im not talking about just the engine. But overall quality is greater. When it comes to accidents etc american cars can rarely compete with the strength of the germans. I remember reading an article where there was an accident between a Ford (i think an f-150) and a BMW 5 series. Basically the truck went into oncoming traffic at about 50 MPH with the BMW doing roughly the same speed. When the hit, the BMW destroyed the truck sending the trucks engine up into the cockpit killing the driver(im pretty sure he died). The BMW had very little damage to the cockpit, and the driver walked away.

    And then you have porsche possibly the strongest sports cars on earth. Who else can go into the Dacar rally for the first time and win with a sports car they use on the street(959).

    bahahahahaha....LMAO....

    DiamlerChrysler OWNS Mercedes-Benz, Maybach, and Chrysler. I can list a lot more if you want.

    PAG (Premier Auto Group) owns FORD, Jaugar, Volvo, Aston Martin, Lincoln/Mercury, Holden, and that brand which made the SUV of yours. Yes, it's LAND ROVER. BMW turned it over Land Rover to Ford and kept Mini just before the current Range Rover debuted.

    Mercedes-Benz has NOTHING to do with Ford.

    BTW, E30, E36, E46 never had used any V8 in the production car other than the new E46 M3 GTR street version has a 4.0 liter V8 which is only built in certain quantity to meet FIA requirement.

    The E36 had the 1.9 liter inline-4 for the 318i/ti/is, 2.5 liter inline-6 for the 325(323 in 1999), 2.8 liter inline-6 for the 328i/is, and a 3.0 liter inline-6 that has 321/240 hp (Euro/US) in 95 and later became a 3.2 liter inline-6 which has the same Euro/US hp rating but with more torque w/ more useful power peak.

    I hope I'm not confusing you.
    Last edited by FrankW; 07-23-2003 at 10:55 PM.

  10. #54
    Registered User DEADPOOL's Avatar
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    Originally posted by FrankW
    bahahahahaha....LMAO....

    DiamlerChrysler OWNS Mercedes-Benz, Maybach, and Chrysler. I can list a lot more if you want.

    PAG (Premier Auto Group) owns FORD, Jaugar, Volvo, Aston Martin, Lincoln/Mercury, Holden, and that brand which made the SUV of yours. Yes, it's LAND ROVER. BMW turned it over Land Rover to Ford and kept Mini just before the current Range Rover debuted.

    Mercedes-Benz has NOTHING to do with Ford.

    BTW, E30, E36, E46 never had used any V8 in the production car other than the new E46 M3 GTR street version has a 4.0 liter V8 which is only built in certain quantity to meet FIA requirement.

    The E36 had the 1.9 liter inline-4 for the 318i/ti/is, 2.5 liter inline-6 for the 325(323 in 1999), 2.8 liter inline-6 for the 328i/is, and a 3.0 liter inline-6 that has 321/240 hp (Euro/US) in 95 and later became a 3.2 liter inline-6 which has the same Euro/US hp rating but with more torque w/ more useful power peak.

    I hope I'm not confusing you.
    Confusing me? Uh ya sure buddy, and what the hell is so funny eh. I know ford owns land rover, i thought they also had some ownership of Mercedes, maybe they did at one point or not. I just remember hearing it a long time ago, maybe i confused it for chrysler.

    Oh and i checked out consumer reports on the vette. They rated it the worst score for reliability, and for preowned vehicles they were rated one of the cars to avoid. Just my $.02
    "Celebrate we will, for life is short but sweet for certain"-DMB

    Liquid - "yes sticky! hes a god now!"

    02 WRX now JDM V8 STI (too many mods for my own good)

  11. #55
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    Originally posted by FrankW
    bahahahahaha....LMAO....

    DiamlerChrysler OWNS Mercedes-Benz, Maybach, and Chrysler. I can list a lot more if you want.

    PAG (Premier Auto Group) owns FORD, Jaugar, Volvo, Aston Martin, Lincoln/Mercury, Holden, and that brand which made the SUV of yours. Yes, it's LAND ROVER. BMW turned it over Land Rover to Ford and kept Mini just before the current Range Rover debuted.

    Mercedes-Benz has NOTHING to do with Ford.

    BTW, E30, E36, E46 never had used any V8 in the production car other than the new E46 M3 GTR street version has a 4.0 liter V8 which is only built in certain quantity to meet FIA requirement.

    The E36 had the 1.9 liter inline-4 for the 318i/ti/is, 2.5 liter inline-6 for the 325(323 in 1999), 2.8 liter inline-6 for the 328i/is, and a 3.0 liter inline-6 that has 321/240 hp (Euro/US) in 95 and later became a 3.2 liter inline-6 which has the same Euro/US hp rating but with more torque w/ more useful power peak.

    I hope I'm not confusing you.
    Lots of good info! Thx.

  12. #56
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    Originally posted by DEADPOOL
    Confusing me? Uh ya sure buddy, and what the hell is so funny eh. I know ford owns land rover, i thought they also had some ownership of Mercedes, maybe they did at one point or not. I just remember hearing it a long time ago, maybe i confused it for chrysler.

    Oh and i checked out consumer reports on the vette. They rated it the worst score for reliability, and for preowned vehicles they were rated one of the cars to avoid. Just my $.02
    Vettes are certainly not the most reliable cars made, speaking from experience having owned one for 2 years/45k miles. The thing is that they're not significantly worse than the expensive German cars I know and love. In my opinion the way to look at a Vette is in terms of bang for the buck. The only other cars out there that offer serious competition are the STi and the Evo...and they are very compelling. If, however, you want a car that can compete at parity with just about anything to about just about any speed the Vette is still in a class of one.

    The other thing to consider is that for a few thousand bucks you can do a head/cam swap on an LS1/6 and make a very swift car a whole lot swifter. When compared to an M3 or a 911 the costs of doing anything to an LS1/6 are downright cheap.

    So, while a Vette is not perfect, it does offer a huge amount of performance value for the $. Having said this I am tempted to say that for most uses an Evo or and STi are the way to go.

  13. #57
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    Originally posted by dangrass
    Vettes are certainly not the most reliable cars made, speaking from experience having owned one for 2 years/45k miles. The thing is that they're not significantly worse than the expensive German cars I know and love. In my opinion the way to look at a Vette is in terms of bang for the buck. The only other cars out there that offer serious competition are the STi and the Evo...and they are very compelling. If, however, you want a car that can compete at parity with just about anything to about just about any speed the Vette is still in a class of one.

    The other thing to consider is that for a few thousand bucks you can do a head/cam swap on an LS1/6 and make a very swift car a whole lot swifter. When compared to an M3 or a 911 the costs of doing anything to an LS1/6 are downright cheap.

    So, while a Vette is not perfect, it does offer a huge amount of performance value for the $. Having said this I am tempted to say that for most uses an Evo or and STi are the way to go.
    I couldnt agree with you more. The evo sti and vette offer the most bamg for buck like you said, the difference being in what your looking for. The sti and evo have the market cornered when it comes to sedans with lots of performance for little cash while the vette has the sports car class. And the thing i hate most is how much cheaper it is to tune a domestic then an import(typically).
    "Celebrate we will, for life is short but sweet for certain"-DMB

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  14. #58
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    Originally posted by dangrass
    Lots of good info! Thx.
    no problem...glad to help

    anywayz, I don't think that realibility will be a problem for any Japanese cars, but it is a great issue for domestic brands and sometimes German brands.

    but if you study the survey and what not published by JD power or whatever, you'll find the the ratio for MB/BMW to have problem is not that bad compare to the best in the market, Lexus, at 1:1.5.

    the Vette is definitely bang for the buck true sports car when you buy'em new.

    the resale value for STi and EVO 8 later on will likely be very high.

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