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This is a discussion on WRX vs. RSX Type-S within the Comparison: WRX vs World forums, part of the Community - Meet other Enthusiasts category; Originally posted by swipe112 You know....I actually raced a Type S at highway speeds once going from about 80-100 mph ...

  1. #16
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    Originally posted by swipe112
    You know....I actually raced a Type S at highway speeds once going from about 80-100 mph and we were pretty dead even. Just goes to show how our turbo sucks away top end power.
    What you're feeling is the backpressure building up...along with the stock ECU turning down boost to about 7-8 psi near redline. For most people the stock turbo pulls pretty nicely up top with proper breathing (exhaust) mods and aftermarket tuning (Cobb reflash). The OE turbo feels MUCH better after that stuff.
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    Originally posted by dangrass
    Maybe, although these cars are electronically limited to 148 mph via a boost cut....so no matter how big the turbo the car won't go more than 148 without a different ECU or a reflash that specifically addresses this issue...or maybe just a MBC. Allegedly the reason for all this, however, is that the stock intercooler doesn't get much airflow at vehicle speeds of greater than 130. The other thing to consider it that the car is geared very well for top speed in that 6k RPM is 149 mph.

    I would think the easiest way to make these cars go faster in top is to simply use a MBC, assuming that this gets around the boost-limited top speed control. Of course it's anybody's guess how long the engine would maintain these vehicle speeds. I'll have to give it a try!
    There is no electronic MPH limit in manual cars. The car is drag limited. Stock gearing will take you to 180+ if you have the HP/TQ. Boost cut is around 18psi, boost near redline drops (on purpose) to about 6-8psi, so no limit there. The stock intercooler is actually quite good - if you're road racing (or heavy into freeway hauling) a larger IC will help w/ proper scoop and sealing. Very high speed efficiency of the scoop is still debatable.

    Don't do just an MBC to increase top end - it will work, but you'll be doing the incorrect thing when it comes to working with the stock ECU. The ECU puts in a lot of advance up top because it's expecting the OE boost taper, you'll be running lean at times with any boost control besides OE. Been there done that (and tweaked an engine already too).

    You'll get "heat soak" (relative term) with more boost than stock and the stock IC doing about 4-8 70-140MPH runs (I was racing an M Roadster doing this in my previous 02 wagon). The ECU will go "flat" as it protects itself from detonation.
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    I believe you are incorrect on the "no top speed limit" statement. The reason I say this is that I've repeatedly tried on long downhills in my '03 and it will not go faster than 148 irrespective of steepness of hill, throttle position, anything. Has your car gone more than 148?

    I followed up on this with Vishnu and another well known tuner and both confirmed that there is in fact a boost-managed limit. Vishnu goes so far as to discuss this in their description of what ECUtek is capable of. I've had discussions with them about a custom ECUtek re-flash to specifically address this issue. The concern on the part of the tuners is that there is risk in removing this limit due to concern over inadequate intercooling. While this may be the case, I suspect the absolute limit of 148 may be more directly tied to the 149 limit of V rated tires.

    Having said all this if anyone with a stock ECU had exceeded 148 mph I'd like to know. So far everyone I've chatted with who has exceeded 148 (not many) had something other than a stock ECU.

    I agree with you on the concerns about using an MBC, it's a cheap and dirty solution, with many drawbacks.

  5. #19
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    I actually think that is because of the drag co efficiant. A stock or near stock WRX kinda hits the wall right there.
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    Following are responses on this subject from Vishnu and Rally Performance:

    From Rally Performance:

    We do have the capability to eliminate the 148mph limiter, but there is a
    concern: At about 130mph, the airflow over the top of the hood of the
    Impreza tends to flow over the top of the intercooler scoop, starving the
    intercooler for air. This can be lessened by adding rake angle to the car
    with coilovers and adding an STi hood scoop, but not entirely eliminated.
    The best answer is a front mount intercooler. If you are going to regularly
    run that high on track, you may also want a fuel rail upgrade to keep number
    3 cylinder happy and alive.

    For the reasons above, we havent eliminated the 148mph limiter - but can do
    so with a special request if you wish. We have upped the boost cut / rev
    limiter slightly. Let us know if you are interested!

    Regards,

    From Vishnu:

    Hello Dan,
    After talking to Shiv he can elevate the factory boost settings to allow for a higher top speed on Manual equipped cars only. However we do not recommend this as engine damage could occur if the car was run at this level for any length of time. Hope that clears that up for you. Happy holidays.

    From the Vishnu website:

    Boost Based Speed Limiting Allows a very soft limiting of vehicle speed by controlling boost pressure the boost pressure gradually drops away to spring tension (e.g. 7 or 8 PSI on a WRX) as the upper limit is approached. Values are in km/h. Multiply by 5/8 for MPH.

    This feature is very useful, but is set very high on the standard ECU. Many independent tests have shown that the standard top mount intercooler receives little air flow at high vehicle speeds and charge temperatures rise rapidly just watch the knock correction as the car is driven hard in 4th & 5th gear for confirmation. This feature may be used to restrict boost pressure at very high speeds, and could save an engine from damage.

  7. #21
    Registered User DROB's Avatar
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    Nice run against the rsx-s. Those cars with no more than 3 mods can be quick. That damn Hondata does wonders for them also. I saw a white wrx get beat by a car length by one this past weekend. But on the other hand from a dead stop it was light out for the rsx.
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  8. #22
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    Arrow Dont get it....

    i raced a Type-S(he had intake, exhaust: im stock) with 2 other people in my car, he had only himself, we rolled in about 40, he took off first, i let him get 1 car ahead and then gunned it, i caught him by the top of second, and was 6 or 7 cars(guess, couldn't make out what kind of car it was, that far) in the middle of 3rd, about 80 mph, i dont get it why everyone else isn't killing these cars, then dont even compare to an integra type R, and those are easy kills as well...
    sliver 03' RX

  9. #23
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    Well the one that raced had up-pipe,d.p. and intake. Roll races are some of our weak points. That being said he needs a bigger exhaust and see what happens then.
    Dom
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  10. #24
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    Arrow What?

    Originally posted by DROB
    Well the one that raced had up-pipe,d.p. and intake. Roll races are some of our weak points. That being said he needs a bigger exhaust and see what happens then.
    RSX-type S is not a turbo car, it has no up-pipe or down-pipe, im not sure what your talking about here
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    Originally posted by DROB
    Well the one that raced had up-pipe,d.p. and intake. Roll races are some of our weak points. That being said he needs a bigger exhaust and see what happens then.
    I guess it depends on what type of race. Drag racing, maybe, but for road racing one of the best attributes of the WRX is it's wide and strong torque band. Had the opportunity to race a new Mustang GT uphill on a local winding road the other day. I was surprised at how well the WRX did. Turbo motors have really nice torque that pays big dividends in real world conditions. Now Acura RSX's...or Honda S2000's...torque is not part of the repertoire.

    It's odd to me that so many of these discussions are about drag racing when the real strength of the WRX is it's "real world' performance on real roads...the ones with curves and bumps and craters and decreasing radius turns and sundry other obstacles. Drag racing is usually best done by vehicles that have just strong top end power. I guess the saving grace of the WRX as a dragster is it's ability to get a good launch, but it's really better suited to other sorts of pursuits of speed. Probably why it's the basis for a rally car.

  12. #26
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    Re: What?

    Originally posted by Brady6226
    RSX-type S is not a turbo car, it has no up-pipe or down-pipe, im not sure what your talking about here
    Brady, I was talking about the scob man.
    Dom
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  13. #27
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    Originally posted by dangrass
    Now Acura RSX's...or Honda S2000's...torque is not part of the repertoire.

    Drag racing is usually best done by vehicles that have just strong top end power. I guess the saving grace of the WRX as a dragster is it's ability to get a good launch, but it's really better suited to other sorts of pursuits of speed. Probably why it's the basis for a rally car.
    My point exactly....the rsx lacks torque but makes up for it at the top end. Both cars are nice.
    Dom
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    Re: Dont get it....

    Originally posted by Brady6226
    i raced a Type-S(he had intake, exhaust: im stock) with 2 other people in my car, he had only himself, we rolled in about 40, he took off first, i let him get 1 car ahead and then gunned it, i caught him by the top of second, and was 6 or 7 cars(guess, couldn't make out what kind of car it was, that far) in the middle of 3rd, about 80 mph, i dont get it why everyone else isn't killing these cars, then dont even compare to an integra type R, and those are easy kills as well...
    That's funny...

    First off, let me state for the record that the WRX is faster than the RSX-S, from a stop and probably from a roll by a bit. Now with that out of the way...

    You think a Type S doesn't compare to an Integra, huh? I feel for you man...

    A Type S will rape a GS-R or any other Integra (N/A of course) besides the Type R. The Type R will pull a Type S stock v. stock, but not by much. And of course, the Type R is a better track car.

    The K20 engine is supposed to be much, much better than the previous Integra engines. Hondata has already opened the car up with the reflash you can have done and basically w/ the reflash and Intake you're running low 14s, high 13s...not bad IMO.

    That's S2K numbers for about $750...

    And I'd like to see 7 cars in a stock v. stock situation. I don't think the Type S driver had any idea how to drive if you're stock..especially since you negated your main advantage, your superb AWD launch.
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  15. #29
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    Arrow Re: Re: Dont get it....

    Originally posted by smokey
    That's funny...

    First off, let me state for the record that the WRX is faster than the RSX-S, from a stop and probably from a roll by a bit. Now with that out of the way...

    You think a Type S doesn't compare to an Integra, huh? I feel for you man...

    A Type S will rape a GS-R or any other Integra (N/A of course) besides the Type R. The Type R will pull a Type S stock v. stock, but not by much. And of course, the Type R is a better track car.

    The K20 engine is supposed to be much, much better than the previous Integra engines. Hondata has already opened the car up with the reflash you can have done and basically w/ the reflash and Intake you're running low 14s, high 13s...not bad IMO.

    That's S2K numbers for about $750...

    And I'd like to see 7 cars in a stock v. stock situation. I don't think the Type S driver had any idea how to drive if you're stock..especially since you negated your main advantage, your superb AWD launch.
    RSX Type-s cars aren't as fast as everyone seems to think they are, i raced an Integra Type-R wiht a JDM Engine that dyno's 210 FWH(front wheel horse power), we started at 15mph, i left it in 2nd and he hit 1st gear, i waited till he got a car length on me, and then i gunned it,i caught him at 65 and pulled on him all the way through 4th gear, and trust me, he knows how to drive
    sliver 03' RX

  16. #30
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    Re: Re: Re: Dont get it....

    Originally posted by Brady6226
    RSX Type-s cars aren't as fast as everyone seems to think they are, i raced an Integra Type-R wiht a JDM Engine that dyno's 210 FWH(front wheel horse power), we started at 15mph, i left it in 2nd and he hit 1st gear, i waited till he got a car length on me, and then i gunned it,i caught him at 65 and pulled on him all the way through 4th gear, and trust me, he knows how to drive
    Man, what kind of mods do you have?

    If you're stock, then you're not sporting a Type R a one car lead and pulling on it that hard...especially one with 210FWHP as you stated.

    As far as a RSX-S not being fast, I'd agree - a high 14, low 15 second car certainly isn't fast. Neither is a stock WRX.

    RSX's, however, are now dipping into the low, low 13s and will soon be hitting high 12s, without any F/I or No2...so you might want to rethink that statement.

    Oh, just to clarify, the WRX is faster than the RSX-S...I don't want this to turn into a pissing contest. But if you're stock, and I'm stock, you're not pulling 6 cars on me, especially if you spot me a lead.

    Edit: and I'd still love to hear your explanation of why the Integra is better than the Type S...remember, you said "Integra" so please, let me know how a GS-R is better than a Type S.
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