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This is a discussion on Mazda Speed 3.... within the Comparison: WRX vs World forums, part of the Community - Meet other Enthusiasts category; i love how the WRX's introduction has made everyone a rally star. this whole AWD thing has gotten way out ...

  1. #61
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    i love how the WRX's introduction has made everyone a rally star. this whole AWD thing has gotten way out of hand. no matter how obvious the facts are, no one wants to admit that the FWD Mini Cooper S, Integra Type R, Integra GSR, Mazda 3, Mazdaspeed 3, Civic Si, VW R32, Mazdaspeed Protege, and to a lesser extent, the RSX-S and VW GTi will easily keep up with the WRX while dodging the cones.

    do they hold track days in the snow?

    AWD is certainly a performance advantage, but it's not an open and shut case. you can still get a FWD car and power it out of a corner, slide it sideways, and do lots of fun things if you buy the right car. i sold my WRX and got a FWD car and last time i checked, the sky wasn't falling....i never got this whole AWD oWnZ mentality. since when does the WRX oversteer?
    embattled, we prevail...only victory exhaled.

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  3. #62
    Registered User elohdaeh78's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AngelBoy
    i love how the WRX's introduction has made everyone a rally star. this whole AWD thing has gotten way out of hand. no matter how obvious the facts are, no one wants to admit that the FWD Mini Cooper S, Integra Type R, Integra GSR, Mazda 3, Mazdaspeed 3, Civic Si, VW R32, Mazdaspeed Protege, and to a lesser extent, the RSX-S and VW GTi will easily keep up with the WRX while dodging the cones.

    do they hold track days in the snow?

    AWD is certainly a performance advantage, but it's not an open and shut case. you can still get a FWD car and power it out of a corner, slide it sideways, and do lots of fun things if you buy the right car. i sold my WRX and got a FWD car and last time i checked, the sky wasn't falling....i never got this whole AWD oWnZ mentality. since when does the WRX oversteer?

    Here is the thing, AWD is better then FWD for a street course if you have two identical cars with identical suspension setups then the awd is going to be better, but when you compare a totally different AWD car to a totally different FWD car all different things come into play. AWD isn't the best thing in the world nor is it unstoppable but if you can find me an advantage of FWD over awd besides the power loss to the wheels then i would like to hear it. I don't get where you are going with this point, a bone stock mazda miata can also beat most of those cars in the cones. Different cars are made for different things. I used to own a toyota supra, do i miss having a more powerful rwd car? yes i do, but when it rains or snows out it was a total nightmare and in the overall everyday driving that i do i would much rather have the wrx, for a weekend car or a second car the supra would have been great, but for an only car it was not much fun. All cars are made for different purposes, AWD to me made a huge difference, its performance gains are quite impressive in some situations compared to FWD and RWD but it also faces the loss of power pushing 4 wheels. Anyway i bought my wrx because i can't have a rear wheel drive car where i live and drive it in the snow and feel comfortable and i don't like how FWD cars drive at all, so for me the AWD sold the car.
    2005 WRX (Short throw shifter, lightweight pulley,STI Splitters,Tein H-Tech springs,Up/Down Pipe, ERZ Catback, Cobb Stage 2, ASA JH8 with Yokohama ES 100s) 13.680@100.46mph

  4. #63
    Registered User n00bulat0l2's Avatar
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    Thanks for all the input guys. I know WRX will handle better in wet/snow it's pretty obvious. However, when you start to mod you do several things, most of which involve even more money...something which I'm trying to save by selling the STI. I don't want to void a warranty, I don't want to have to install or pay to install things, don't want to worry about something breaking after a mod, don't want to have parts/wheels/tires sitting around my apartment, so for me, modding is not really something I'm putting into the equation. So here's how I'm looking at it:

    Both have performance, practicality, and are pretty much the same price. Interiors seems nice on both, but I haven't seen the either the WRX or the MS3 interiors except in pictures.

    WRX wagon
    + AWD so snow/rain won't affect performance (although I live in Northern VA so we don't really get a lot of snow, and that which we do get the roads are pretty much cleared immediately, not to mention if it's raining/snowing I probably shouldn't be driving fast anyways)
    + Reliability (I believe in Subaru's reliability slightly more than Mazda's, although at this point who's to say who has the best reliability after all, Japanese cars used to be "crap" back in the day and look where they are now, and the 06 WRX trannies are questionable)
    - Most people say it needs better tires/suspension/exhaust to really shine (more $$$)

    MSP3
    + I like the looks more than the WRX
    + Awesome street car out of the box (no need to mod)
    - Unsure of potential problems from first year run (although the Mazda 3 isn't new, just the speed part of it, but who knows if it'll have problems. Of course the WRX has its share of problems like the tranny probs so either one can have issues)
    +/- A LOT of hype about the car can mean two things: it really is that good or it has excellent marketing
    - FWD "understeer" is there at the limits (although I don't really plan to reach those, I may decide to try some autoX at some point)
    +/- Unsure of Mazda's service department (are they as horrible as SoA?)
    + Limited run so it may hold it's value more
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  5. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by elohdaeh78
    AWD is better then FWD for a street course if you have two identical cars with identical suspension setups then the awd is going to be better....but when you compare a totally different AWD car to a totally different FWD car all different things come into play.
    agreed 100%

    Quote Originally Posted by elohdaeh78
    if you can find me an advantage of FWD over awd besides the power loss to the wheels then i would like to hear it.
    it's like you said,
    Quote Originally Posted by elohdaeh78
    when you compare a totally different AWD car to a totally different FWD car all different things come into play.

    Quote Originally Posted by elohdaeh78
    I don't get where you are going with this point,
    i'm saying what you're saying. hang around here long enough and you'll see plenty of solid, capable cars dismissed just because they're FWD.
    embattled, we prevail...only victory exhaled.

  6. #65
    Registered User DTR rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by n00bulat0l2
    Thanks for all the input guys. I know WRX will handle better in wet/snow it's pretty obvious. However, when you start to mod you do several things, most of which involve even more money...something which I'm trying to save by selling the STI. I don't want to void a warranty, I don't want to have to install or pay to install things, don't want to worry about something breaking after a mod, don't want to have parts/wheels/tires sitting around my apartment, so for me, modding is not really something I'm putting into the equation. So here's how I'm looking at it:

    Both have performance, practicality, and are pretty much the same price. Interiors seems nice on both, but I haven't seen the either the WRX or the MS3 interiors except in pictures.

    WRX wagon
    + AWD so snow/rain won't affect performance (although I live in Northern VA so we don't really get a lot of snow, and that which we do get the roads are pretty much cleared immediately, not to mention if it's raining/snowing I probably shouldn't be driving fast anyways)
    + Reliability (I believe in Subaru's reliability slightly more than Mazda's, although at this point who's to say who has the best reliability after all, Japanese cars used to be "crap" back in the day and look where they are now, and the 06 WRX trannies are questionable)
    - Most people say it needs better tires/suspension/exhaust to really shine (more $$$)

    MSP3
    + I like the looks more than the WRX
    + Awesome street car out of the box (no need to mod)
    - Unsure of potential problems from first year run (although the Mazda 3 isn't new, just the speed part of it, but who knows if it'll have problems. Of course the WRX has its share of problems like the tranny probs so either one can have issues)
    +/- A LOT of hype about the car can mean two things: it really is that good or it has excellent marketing
    - FWD "understeer" is there at the limits (although I don't really plan to reach those, I may decide to try some autoX at some point)
    +/- Unsure of Mazda's service department (are they as horrible as SoA?)
    + Limited run so it may hold it's value more
    Just go test drive both, but to me it sounds like the MS3 is going to make you happy.
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  7. #66
    Registered User Griswold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by n00bulat0l2
    Thanks for all the input guys. I know WRX will handle better in wet/snow it's pretty obvious. However, when you start to mod you do several things, most of which involve even more money...something which I'm trying to save by selling the STI. I don't want to void a warranty, I don't want to have to install or pay to install things, don't want to worry about something breaking after a mod, don't want to have parts/wheels/tires sitting around my apartment, so for me, modding is not really something I'm putting into the equation. So here's how I'm looking at it:

    Both have performance, practicality, and are pretty much the same price. Interiors seems nice on both, but I haven't seen the either the WRX or the MS3 interiors except in pictures.

    WRX wagon
    + AWD so snow/rain won't affect performance (although I live in Northern VA so we don't really get a lot of snow, and that which we do get the roads are pretty much cleared immediately, not to mention if it's raining/snowing I probably shouldn't be driving fast anyways)
    + Reliability (I believe in Subaru's reliability slightly more than Mazda's, although at this point who's to say who has the best reliability after all, Japanese cars used to be "crap" back in the day and look where they are now, and the 06 WRX trannies are questionable)
    - Most people say it needs better tires/suspension/exhaust to really shine (more $$$)

    MSP3
    + I like the looks more than the WRX
    + Awesome street car out of the box (no need to mod)
    - Unsure of potential problems from first year run (although the Mazda 3 isn't new, just the speed part of it, but who knows if it'll have problems. Of course the WRX has its share of problems like the tranny probs so either one can have issues)
    +/- A LOT of hype about the car can mean two things: it really is that good or it has excellent marketing
    - FWD "understeer" is there at the limits (although I don't really plan to reach those, I may decide to try some autoX at some point)
    +/- Unsure of Mazda's service department (are they as horrible as SoA?)
    + Limited run so it may hold it's value more
    For my useful info, I will be very blunt. Mazda of America is not a great warranty service company. I've found my fair share of uncooperative service departments. I've finally found a dealer that was willing to take me seriously (and work with me a little) and I've been happy ever since. Of course this was after wrote a letter to the GM and Service manager of the prior dealership.

    I don't know how bad SOA is, but MOA can be a PIA!

    Now for my opinionated info. Both cars will be good Autocrossers though, personally, I'll give the nod to the Mazda. Again, in my MSP, in D Stock I was beating the guy in the WRX who's a good driver and had koni shocks, sticky tires, cat back exhaust and a Front sway bar (no rear so he could stay in D stock) by 3+ seconds. I was bone stock.

    I will concede, this WRX was not an '06, but one of the 2.0L variety. I did a ride along with him once and I'll admit, I was jealous of this get up and go!


    The MS3 should be better than the MSP in almost every way.

    You're in a tough situation. All anyone is doing in this thread now is bench racing and expressing biased opinions. So many what if's about mods vs mods and cars that aren't out yet. Have you talked to a dealer about when MS3's are available for testing?? Any dates yet?

  8. #67
    Registered User DTR rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AngelBoy
    i love how the WRX's introduction has made everyone a rally star. this whole AWD thing has gotten way out of hand. no matter how obvious the facts are, no one wants to admit that the FWD Mini Cooper S, Integra Type R, Integra GSR, Mazda 3, Mazdaspeed 3, Civic Si, VW R32, Mazdaspeed Protege, and to a lesser extent, the RSX-S and VW GTi will easily keep up with the WRX while dodging the cones.

    do they hold track days in the snow?

    AWD is certainly a performance advantage, but it's not an open and shut case. you can still get a FWD car and power it out of a corner, slide it sideways, and do lots of fun things if you buy the right car. i sold my WRX and got a FWD car and last time i checked, the sky wasn't falling....i never got this whole AWD oWnZ mentality. since when does the WRX oversteer?
    I absolutely love my awd for a few reasons... And you know me, the last thing I am is a wrx fanboi that is bias.. I am often the one defending other cars here.

    The wrx AWD is really great for correcting its understeer because you hit the throttle and get insta-traction, even if you are begining to slide. It also feels great exiting a corner and mid-way you can smash the throttle and have confidence the awd is going to pull you through.

    Granted though, my wrx is running on full suspension and tires.... A stock wrx is nothing to write home about in ANY respect when it comes to handling. Even with my mods it plows through some corners, understeers, is not very nimble, etc...

    That being said, I think AWD is great. The wrx does need some work though and not just your basic tires/springs. Sure that helps, but my wrx is running tires, struts, springs, bushings, endlinks, sway bars and even still I am dissapointed by its handling capabilities. On a track, when really pushed I am sure it would perform great... but for daily driving it just does not deliver the nimble feedback I feel it should.
    My Integra GSR with basic suspension work (FWD mind you) handled better than my wrx could ever imagine on a daily basis. On a real track, my wrx would take it, but for daily driving purposes the GSR was a better handling car.
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  9. #68
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    The guy said all of the first shipment was taken already. They had sold 4-5 out of the 12-ish they're getting. He said it may not be till January But that's ok because once my gf gets her new car and my STI is sold I'm gonna drive around her 94 civic for a few months to save up a good downpayment (should be $850+ a month without car payment/insurance/premium gas). So January would be earliest I'd want to get a new car anyways. But either way, I'm definately going to test drive both, preferably one after the other to see which I like the feel of more. I'm still leaning towards the MS3 but that doesn't mean I don't have love for the Subaru anymore. I guess we'll see how bad the winter will be this year (supposed to me mild) and be driving a FWD POS to see if I'll really miss the AWD that has spoiled me thus far.
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  10. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by DTR rex
    The wrx AWD is really great for correcting its understeer because you hit the throttle and get insta-traction, even if you are begining to slide. .
    i admit this is a lot of fun and can't be duplicated with FWD. i also know you used to own a Maxima and could probably vouch for some FWD issues when getting the power down.
    embattled, we prevail...only victory exhaled.

  11. #70
    Registered User n00bulat0l2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DTR rex
    I absolutely love my awd for a few reasons... And you know me, the last thing I am is a wrx fanboi that is bias.. I am often the one defending other cars here.

    The wrx AWD is really great for correcting its understeer because you hit the throttle and get insta-traction, even if you are begining to slide. It also feels great exiting a corner and mid-way you can smash the throttle and have confidence the awd is going to pull you through.

    Granted though, my wrx is running on full suspension and tires.... A stock wrx is nothing to write home about in ANY respect when it comes to handling. Even with my mods it plows through some corners, understeers, is not very nimble, etc...

    That being said, I think AWD is great. The wrx does need some work though and not just your basic tires/springs. Sure that helps, but my wrx is running tires, struts, springs, bushings, endlinks, sway bars and even still I am dissapointed by its handling capabilities. On a track, when really pushed I am sure it would perform great... but for daily driving it just does not deliver the nimble feedback I feel it should.
    My Integra GSR with basic suspension work (FWD mind you) handled better than my wrx could ever imagine on a daily basis. On a real track, my wrx would take it, but for daily driving purposes the GSR was a better handling car.
    Ahhh and there is what I'm beginning to see clearer with all this talking. I think the MS3 would be better for my everyday driving thrills whereas on the track the WRX may be better. So since I'm not track/autoX guy and only looking for daily thrills, perhaps I would feel more nimble in the MS3. I know it's got a tighter turning radius than my STI . So parking in tight spaces would be easier, and donuts in reverse sounds like a ton of fun!

    I'm glad people are sharing their opinions, this is helping me figure some things out. Of course, I'll still be trolling and thinking for the next few months, and who knows what I'll want then
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  12. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by AngelBoy
    i love how the WRX's introduction has made everyone a rally star. this whole AWD thing has gotten way out of hand. no matter how obvious the facts are, no one wants to admit that the FWD Mini Cooper S, Integra Type R, Integra GSR, Mazda 3, Mazdaspeed 3, Civic Si, VW R32, Mazdaspeed Protege, and to a lesser extent, the RSX-S and VW GTi will easily keep up with the WRX while dodging the cones.

    do they hold track days in the snow?

    AWD is certainly a performance advantage, but it's not an open and shut case. you can still get a FWD car and power it out of a corner, slide it sideways, and do lots of fun things if you buy the right car. i sold my WRX and got a FWD car and last time i checked, the sky wasn't falling....i never got this whole AWD oWnZ mentality. since when does the WRX oversteer?
    r32 is AWD

  13. #72
    Registered User n00bulat0l2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScstealthVR6
    r32 is AWD
    True. Also, I thought owning a WRX made you a rally star automagically?
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  14. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by n00bulat0l2
    True. Also, I thought owning a WRX made you a rally star automagically?
    It did me...hell...I even have kids name Peter and Mikko...... (I am lying somewhere in here...can you guess where?....bet you can't!)


















    I am not a rally star (ok...in my dreams I am) but I do have a son named Mikko (who can already do a scandinavian flick in his pedal car!!!! but not one named Peter.
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  15. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScstealthVR6
    r32 is AWD
    Haldex doesn't count
    embattled, we prevail...only victory exhaled.

  16. #75
    Moderator YBNormal07's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AngelBoy
    i love how the WRX's introduction has made everyone a rally star. this whole AWD thing has gotten way out of hand. no matter how obvious the facts are, no one wants to admit that the FWD Mini Cooper S, Integra Type R, Integra GSR, Mazda 3, Mazdaspeed 3, Civic Si, VW R32, Mazdaspeed Protege, and to a lesser extent, the RSX-S and VW GTi will easily keep up with the WRX while dodging the cones.

    do they hold track days in the snow?

    AWD is certainly a performance advantage, but it's not an open and shut case. you can still get a FWD car and power it out of a corner, slide it sideways, and do lots of fun things if you buy the right car. i sold my WRX and got a FWD car and last time i checked, the sky wasn't falling....i never got this whole AWD oWnZ mentality. since when does the WRX oversteer?
    If you live in the "conehead" world, which is nowhere near real life driving, then I can understand your perspective. Get out on a real track though, and it is a known fact that AWD > FWD. No questions, hands down, understood in most forms of motorsports racing. It's why it was banned in F1, and Champ, and why it is severely penealized in most other forms of racing where it is allowed. It just stands to reason...anything you can do in a RWD or a FWD you can also do in an AWD. However, anything you can do in an AWD you can't do in a RWD or FWD. At the limits of adhesion, at the apex of a turn, no matter how good the suspension is, an AWD car will power out of a corner faster than an FWD car. At the limits of adhesion, powering out of a corner, AWD can put down more HP to the ground than both FWD and RWD to exit faster. Pure physics is involved here. Understand, I am not knocking FWD or RWD. However, having owned and raced all 3 platforms, it is very clear to me which has the advantage. The one and only true disadvantage AWD has over FWD and RWD is powertrain loss and weight. Sure a lightweight FWD car can kick a WRX's butt on a short, multiple turn course. Put those same cars on a right course with a long straightaway and a standing start, and the others will never get passed the WRX from the launch. The only one with even a chance on a long course is the MS3, and as I said earlier, stock for stock, the MS3 does outcorner the WRX...no question. Higher entry speeds and better braking will overcome the lower exit speeds in stock condition. Change the tires on the WRX though and all bets are off. Of course, you can say that for any modification, for any car, on any track. Once "mods" enter the equation, it's just bench racing from then on until you actually compete on a track, in side by side racing (not against the clock and the cones). I don't believe there are a bunch of FWD haters on this site...I just believe there are a lot of AWD lovers on this site. And even you, a former AWD owner have to give it up for AWD when it comes to performance. If you really honestly think FWD > AWD for performance, then hey...thats great. I somehow don't believe this to be what you espouse. My experience differs...and thus....this post now exists.
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