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This is a discussion on Mazda Speed 3.... within the Comparison: WRX vs World forums, part of the Community - Meet other Enthusiasts category; Originally Posted by Griswold You mention Mazda being owned by Ford, when it's only the "controlling interest" that's owned. Hell, ...

  1. #16
    Registered User D0WNxSH1FT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Griswold
    You mention Mazda being owned by Ford, when it's only the "controlling interest" that's owned. Hell, isn't (or wasn't) Subaru's controlling interest owned by GM? I thought that's how you got the Saabaru 9-2x aero. Platform sharing between GM brands.

    Sorry for the threadjack.
    Yes you are correct. The only exception is that the WRX is 100% built in Japan and does not use GM parts. The Saab 9-2x was built 100% in Japan and does not use GM parts besides its badges, oh and it is discontinued b/c GM sold its stake in Subaru to Toyota/ the open market.

    Ford owns a large stake in Mazda and I thought (IIRC) the Mazda 3, Ford Focus, and Volvo S40 are all from the same platform and parts bin. But i could be wrong. Not saying any of them are bad cars. Frankly Mazda has been going through a great revolution of the company and its products. I seriously considered the MS6 but didnt want a car that big yet.
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    Registered User WRXScarlett's Avatar
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    I'd take the WRX any day also. As mentioned placing a TR(which is what I own) will a maxed out version of a mazda3 is like placing a slug against a jet in a race, except this slug won the 0-60 and 1/4 mile. OHHHHH!
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    Quote Originally Posted by WRXScarlett
    I'd take the WRX any day also. As mentioned placing a TR(which is what I own) will a maxed out version of a mazda3 is like placing a slug against a jet in a race, except this slug won the 0-60 and 1/4 mile. OHHHHH!
    Not really. The TR doesn't lose any horsepower to the normal WRX, and if your dealer included the spoiler like mine, then the only difference is the weight we're not carrying around from the interior goodies. It's like racing a jet against a lighter jet. The lighter jet just so happens to be AWD...
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    People are getting the '06 WRX's into the 13.7's (1/4 mile) bone-stock, you can't deny the ultra-wide powerband for the limited amount of HP and torque it's got... The MS3 has so much more HP and torque but it's peaky powerband still doesn't beat the WRX in a straight line. Excluding the 0-100 MPH, which I'll admit the WRX isn't really peppy in that MPH range because of the AWD and gearing, but that's a compromise I'm willing to take. AWD FTW!!!!1!!!11!!!1!!
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    Registered User D0WNxSH1FT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thaddy
    Not really. The TR doesn't lose any horsepower to the normal WRX, and if your dealer included the spoiler like mine, then the only difference is the weight we're not carrying around from the interior goodies. It's like racing a jet against a lighter jet. The lighter jet just so happens to be AWD...
    He wasnt referring to the weight of the car, or the performance. he was saying that it is unfair to compare the fully loaded, navi equipped MS3 to the bare bones, mechanical hvac, cheap seats, single cd, black mirror, fog-less TR that is nearly $4,000 cheaper in reality despite what they put as MSRP (you can check the websites to see the mag was way off in pricing).
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    Registered User ArizonaWRX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by D0WNxSH1FT
    Yes you are correct. The only exception is that the WRX is 100% built in Japan and does not use GM parts. The Saab 9-2x was built 100% in Japan and does not use GM parts besides its badges, oh and it is discontinued b/c GM sold its stake in Subaru to Toyota/ the open market.

    Ford owns a large stake in Mazda and I thought (IIRC) the Mazda 3, Ford Focus, and Volvo S40 are all from the same platform and parts bin. But i could be wrong. Not saying any of them are bad cars. Frankly Mazda has been going through a great revolution of the company and its products. I seriously considered the MS6 but didnt want a car that big yet.
    YOU are correct in that Subaru owns, well, it self. Subaru is owned by the Fuji Corporation, and the minority share owned by GM has since been sold. Subaru is in control of their own destiny, and their own desgin, manufacturing, and parts. (THANK GOD). Again, the WRX is still faster 0-60, is AWD vs. FWD, and is more receptive to mods (summer tires, uppipe, downpipe, and ecu flash would help the WRX more than Mazda). Peak power vs, constant, I would take constant, as in the WRX you can power into and out of turns. Overall, the WRX can do more as a car, is still faster 0-60 (which is 75% of most everyday strret driving, the other 25% being freeway driving) and is more dependable.

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    Seeing as how I'm looking at the MS3 vs the 06 WRX (I have an 06 STI now but want cheaper insurance/payments) I have been reading a lot about the MS3. I actually test drove a regular Mazda3 last night and was really impressed with the handling. Have any of you actually driven one? I took it on some back roads and a clover-leaf on/off ramp area and found it to stick like crazy. Body roll was minimal, didn't squeal or understeer, and in fact seems like an awesome-handling car. Maybe an expert could tell a difference on a race track, but on the road I didn't really feel any less comfortable than in my STI.

    I haven't driven the regular WRX but I think it was edmunds.com that said they had a higher slalom speed in the 3 than an sti. I know most people here are "AWD OR DIE" kind of people, but I'm curious how many of you have driven the 3. Also, everyone keeps talking of "peaky power" but from what I've seen/read it's actually got a very flat torque curve. They direct injection engine also apparantly minimilizes the turbo lag, provides more power, better emissions, and better gas mileage. Seems hard to find a bad opinion about the car really that doesn't seem have an obvious bias.

    So I guess my question is...how many of you have driven a mazda3 (obviously the mazdaspeed3s are not really available yet) and can compare them (handling-wise)? Guy at the dealership used to own a WRX and said he felt the 3 handled better (he races go-karts, cars, and bikes). Granted he could've been lying through his teeth, he seemed genuine and shared my shock when he first drove the car and saw it's small turning radius, responsive and flat turn-in, and stickiness ot the road.
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  9. #23
    Registered User Griswold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by n00bulat0l2
    Seeing as how I'm looking at the MS3 vs the 06 WRX (I have an 06 STI now but want cheaper insurance/payments) I have been reading a lot about the MS3. I actually test drove a regular Mazda3 last night and was really impressed with the handling. Have any of you actually driven one? I took it on some back roads and a clover-leaf on/off ramp area and found it to stick like crazy. Body roll was minimal, didn't squeal or understeer, and in fact seems like an awesome-handling car. Maybe an expert could tell a difference on a race track, but on the road I didn't really feel any less comfortable than in my STI.

    I haven't driven the regular WRX but I think it was edmunds.com that said they had a higher slalom speed in the 3 than an sti. I know most people here are "AWD OR DIE" kind of people, but I'm curious how many of you have driven the 3. Also, everyone keeps talking of "peaky power" but from what I've seen/read it's actually got a very flat torque curve. They direct injection engine also apparantly minimilizes the turbo lag, provides more power, better emissions, and better gas mileage. Seems hard to find a bad opinion about the car really that doesn't seem have an obvious bias.

    So I guess my question is...how many of you have driven a mazda3 (obviously the mazdaspeed3s are not really available yet) and can compare them (handling-wise)? Guy at the dealership used to own a WRX and said he felt the 3 handled better (he races go-karts, cars, and bikes). Granted he could've been lying through his teeth, he seemed genuine and shared my shock when he first drove the car and saw it's small turning radius, responsive and flat turn-in, and stickiness ot the road.
    \

    I'm going to assume that the MS3 handles about as well as my Mazdaspeed Protege. Stock for stock, the MSP ruins a stock WRX. That's not a knock on the WRX, just that Mazda did the handling / suspension right on the MSP and the engine fairly poorly.

    IF, and I'll capitalize IF, the MS3 handles like the MSP, you'll love the handling. Personally, (and I'm a Mazda owner) I think 263hp is too much for the front wheels. I'd still buy the car, but I'd be annoyed by the electronic torque steer counter measures limiting output.

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    Registered User farBeyondDriven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by n00bulat0l2
    Also, everyone keeps talking of "peaky power" but from what I've seen/read it's actually got a very flat torque curve.
    I'm not positive since I've never actually seen the dyno results for a MS3... but if it has a very flat torque curve then why is it slower than the WRX in the 1/4 mile? It has WAY more horsepower and torque, and I *think* it's even lighter than the WRX. I can understand the WRX beating the MS3 in the 0-60 because of the AWD but with that much more horsepower / torque it should be doing the 1/4 mile a little quicker IMO.
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    Yeah I actually really liked the handling/ride on the hatchback I tested. I was completely shocked at it's abilities and nimbleness. I agree 264 hp / 280 lb-ft seems excessive for a FWD but look at the SRT-4/Cobalt SS. Certainly one could argue those have too much but it seems to work for them. Torque management I don't feel would be "interfering" as much as it would be helping to prevent the rediculous wheelspin/hop you'd have. I mean unless you want to burn out everywhere, then I guess I'd see it as a bad thing. And I'm sure there will be reflash to stop that anyways. Also, some people are saying that the WRX will respond more to mods and I'm just curious how they know that since the car isn't even out yet?
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  12. #26
    Registered User n00bulat0l2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by farBeyondDriven
    I'm not positive since I've never actually seen the dyno results for a MS3... but if it has a very flat torque curve then why is it slower than the WRX in the 1/4 mile? It has WAY more horsepower and torque, and I *think* it's even lighter than the WRX. I can understand the WRX beating the MS3 in the 0-60 because of the AWD but with that much more horsepower / torque it should be doing the 1/4 mile a little quicker IMO.
    Interesting the drivetrain loss but I'm thinking bad day or something...one dyno doesn't tell whole story but you can see the flatness (sorry for large pics)

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    Last edited by n00bulat0l2; 10-17-2006 at 01:42 PM.
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    Registered User ArizonaWRX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by n00bulat0l2
    Seeing as how I'm looking at the MS3 vs the 06 WRX (I have an 06 STI now but want cheaper insurance/payments) I have been reading a lot about the MS3. I actually test drove a regular Mazda3 last night and was really impressed with the handling. Have any of you actually driven one? I took it on some back roads and a clover-leaf on/off ramp area and found it to stick like crazy. Body roll was minimal, didn't squeal or understeer, and in fact seems like an awesome-handling car. Maybe an expert could tell a difference on a race track, but on the road I didn't really feel any less comfortable than in my STI.

    I haven't driven the regular WRX but I think it was edmunds.com that said they had a higher slalom speed in the 3 than an sti. I know most people here are "AWD OR DIE" kind of people, but I'm curious how many of you have driven the 3. Also, everyone keeps talking of "peaky power" but from what I've seen/read it's actually got a very flat torque curve. They direct injection engine also apparantly minimilizes the turbo lag, provides more power, better emissions, and better gas mileage. Seems hard to find a bad opinion about the car really that doesn't seem have an obvious bias.

    So I guess my question is...how many of you have driven a mazda3 (obviously the mazdaspeed3s are not really available yet) and can compare them (handling-wise)? Guy at the dealership used to own a WRX and said he felt the 3 handled better (he races go-karts, cars, and bikes). Granted he could've been lying through his teeth, he seemed genuine and shared my shock when he first drove the car and saw it's small turning radius, responsive and flat turn-in, and stickiness ot the road.
    Edmunds when they tested the new 06 WRX, marveled that it had one of the tightest turning radius of any car its size they have ever tested. And f you have ever bought a new car, salesman are literally paid to lie. COme on, they are in the business of selling cars. I am sure that you came in with an STI, say you want to test drive the MS3, and he will say, you're better off with what you have. You could have been driving the prestige and he would have said, wow, the turn radius and handling are great. C'mon man, you can see that. No one is arguing that the MAzda speed 3 isn't a nice car, but the three experts that did the drive on this month's Motor Trend article for auto cross all said they would still prefer the WRX, and we are saying the same.

    THE WRX is still 0-60 faster, is still AWD, is dependable and proven to be smashing with mods, and unlike the Mazda 3, is not owned by Ford. The warranty for the new Mazdaspeed 3 also is one: the bumper to bumper is extended to 50,000, but there is no powertrain, or ANY warranty offered after 50,000. With a car linked to Ford and no warranty whatsoever after 50,000? No thanks. The WRX powertrain is good till 60,000 including the turbo, and older WRX with triple the mileage are still going strong, provided you take care of them.

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    the WRX and MSP 3 are two completely different kinds of cars. you're fighting a losing battle if you're trying to convince yourself that it's the better performance buy. it's not.

    -compared to the MSP 3, it's got a sh!tty transmission, mud/snow tires, too much body roll, and not as much power.

    the WRX's strengths are its modability if you have the spare cash, its AWD, its more "mature" nature, the unique boxer layout, and its long travel suspension.

    if you'll allow me to extend an olive branch, i think the next-gen WRX is going to a$$ rape the competition and become the best performance car for the money that it once was.

    stock for stock, however, it gets pounded by the MSP 3, and it costs a lot more. the WRX needs a thorough re-design as it's almost into its 6th model year
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    Registered User ArizonaWRX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AngelBoy
    the WRX and MSP 3 are two completely different kinds of cars. you're fighting a losing battle if you're trying to convince yourself that it's the better performance buy. it's not.

    -compared to the MSP 3, it's got a sh!tty transmission, mud/snow tires, too much body roll, and not as much power.

    the WRX's strengths are its modability if you have the spare cash, its AWD, its more "mature" nature, the unique boxer layout, and its long travel suspension.

    if you'll allow me to extend an olive branch, i think the next-gen WRX is going to a$$ rape the competition and become the best performance car for the money that it once was.

    stock for stock, however, it gets pounded by the MSP 3, and it costs a lot more. the WRX needs a thorough re-design as it's almost into its 6th model year
    I agree they are two different car for two purposes. One is a fast FWD hatch car. The other is an AWD rally inspired car. They are different cars that appeal to two different types of people, yet share the turbo car market. I agree, long term I do and would choose the WRX, but as a consumer who looked at both, I choose an 06 WRX and I would choose it again. I accept the olive branch, but I can't help but share the Suby love. The WRX 0-60 is faster, and AWD makes it stand apart. but props to the MAzda too, it is a sweet ride. Again, as a consumer who looked at both, I choose Subaru. Others may choose differently, some may choose the same; I am just offering my feedback.

  16. #30
    Registered User Griswold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArizonaWRX
    I agree they are two different car for two purposes. One is a fast FWD hatch car. The other is an AWD rally inspired car. They are different cars that appeal to two different types of people, yet share the turbo car market. I agree, long term I do and would choose the WRX, but as a consumer who looked at both, I choose an 06 WRX and I would choose it again. I accept the olive branch, but I can't help but share the Suby love. The WRX 0-60 is faster, and AWD makes it stand apart. but props to the MAzda too, it is a sweet ride. Again, as a consumer who looked at both, I choose Subaru. Others may choose differently, some may choose the same; I am just offering my feedback.
    Well put. It's all about what you want. I went with the MSP because I wanted a bad ass little autocrosser straight from the factory.

    I don't regret that decision as I won my autocross class this year!

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