new guy, i got beat by mf friends stock 09 gti - Page 2
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This is a discussion on new guy, i got beat by mf friends stock 09 gti within the Comparison: WRX vs World forums, part of the Community - Meet other Enthusiasts category; Originally Posted by INTA:LECT 240whp 212tq sounds waaaay off, considering your stock numbers are 224hp and 226tq AT THE CRANK. ...

  1. #16
    Registered User tonydig11's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTA:LECT View Post
    240whp 212tq sounds waaaay off, considering your stock numbers are 224hp and 226tq AT THE CRANK.

    Sounds like you need a driver mod... those GTI's only make 211hp 207tq and weight 3100+lbs.

    your wrx traps around 94mph... that new GTI traps around 96... he should have you beat from a roll but not by 3-4 cars.

    race him from a dig lol...
    you say the WRX traps around 94mph. what is "traps"?

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  3. #17
    Registered User RossLH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 06scoobyrex View Post
    Your probally running lean with that new intake you put on with a tune plus it takes a while to get used to subaru's notchy ass gearboxes
    Quote Originally Posted by 06scoobyrex View Post
    It depends on the map on the AP, to get 300 to the crank you'd need a TBE and a diecent stage 2 tune... the 08's have a larger turbo and intercooler then the older WRX's
    You're killing me, dude. No, he's not running lean with the AEM intake. The intake diameter at the MAF is identical to the stock intake, so the MAF reading is just as accurate as stock.

    Also, the '09's come with the VF52, not the '08's. In order to get an '08 WRX up to 300bhp, you need to either run an EWG on the stock TD04 and beat the hell out of the turbo (seen it happen a couple times, but the turbo wont last long), or just get a bigger fuel pump and bigger turbo.

    And no, '06+ WRX's are not significantly underrated. The '06-'08 cars may have a bigger engine, but they're running lower boost than the older EJ205 cars from the factory.
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  4. #18
    Registered User INTA:LECT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tonydig11 View Post
    you say the WRX traps around 94mph. what is "traps"?
    the traps is the finish line at the drag strip, 94mph at the traps means you are going 94mph at the end of the quarter mile.

    trap speed is a good way to judge how well your car does from a roll as it measures the top end of your acceleration.

    look at what your car traps in the eighth mile and find the difference in mph between the eighth and the quarter mile trap speeds... the greater the difference between the two, the better your car is in the top end.

    the gti trpping 96mph in the 1/4 is 2mph faster than the wrx trapping 94mph in the 1/4 mile... which means it will have a slight advantage over the wrx from a roll.
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    Registered User 06scoobyrex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RossLH View Post
    You're killing me, dude. No, he's not running lean with the AEM intake. The intake diameter at the MAF is identical to the stock intake, so the MAF reading is just as accurate as stock.

    Also, the '09's come with the VF52, not the '08's. In order to get an '08 WRX up to 300bhp, you need to either run an EWG on the stock TD04 and beat the hell out of the turbo (seen it happen a couple times, but the turbo wont last long), or just get a bigger fuel pump and bigger turbo.

    And no, '06+ WRX's are not significantly underrated. The '06-'08 cars may have a bigger engine, but they're running lower boost than the older EJ205 cars from the factory.
    The larger diameter of the air filter could be throwing off the MAF scaling even with the same size tubing... also the MAF sensor being moved from its original location could also throw it off. He can come within 10 crank hp with a stage 2 set up with the right tune and a few mods such as his intake, IC hoses, DP, full catless TBE, and the right tune... the only real way to tell what the real crank HP is is to remlove the engine and do a bench test...
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  6. #20
    Registered User INTA:LECT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RossLH View Post
    You're killing me, dude. No, he's not running lean with the AEM intake. The intake diameter at the MAF is identical to the stock intake, so the MAF reading is just as accurate as stock.

    Also, the '09's come with the VF52, not the '08's. In order to get an '08 WRX up to 300bhp, you need to either run an EWG on the stock TD04 and beat the hell out of the turbo (seen it happen a couple times, but the turbo wont last long), or just get a bigger fuel pump and bigger turbo.

    And no, '06+ WRX's are not significantly underrated. The '06-'08 cars may have a bigger engine, but they're running lower boost than the older EJ205 cars from the factory.
    lol... because lower boost means less power right? you're an idiot.

    the larger displacement allows for more power to be made on lower boost levels, while your 02-03 wrx makes 227hp on 14+ psi... the 06-07 wrx makes 230hp on 11.5psi.

    many dynos have shown that the 06-07 wrx puts down over 200whp, while the 02-03 wrx only puts down 170whp... even though it's only rated for 3hp less than the 06-07...

    i'd say that's pretty ****in underrated.
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  7. #21
    Registered User RossLH's Avatar
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    Having tuned a car with an AEM intake, I can assure you the stock MAF scaling works just fine. And no, he wont come within 10hp of 300bhp with a TD04 without an EWG and meth or water injection. The turbo is just too small, and if you try to push it that hard without some assistance, you're simply blasting your way right out of its efficiency range. It just wont happen. In fact, you give it a try, see what happens when you try to push the car to 300bhp with the stock turbo. I want you to do the work and the tuning. If you dont have any problems with detonation, I will personally give you $100.

    The '02-05 WRX's ran 13.5psi target from the factory. On the same dyno, run an '02 WRX and an '06 WRX, the differences in whp numbers are negligible. Sure, you could put an '02 WRX on a Mustang dyno, say it reads 150whp, then put an '06 WRX on a Dynojet and say it reads 220whp, but in reality the actual power is minimally different. Again, give it a try and see what happens.

    I've done my research, I've done the tuning, I've SEEN the results with my own two eyes. Clearly that makes me the idiot here.
    Last edited by RossLH; 06-12-2010 at 07:21 PM.
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  8. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by RossLH View Post
    Having tuned a car with an AEM intake, I can assure you the stock MAF scaling works just fine. And no, he wont come within 10hp of 300bhp with a TD04 without an EWG and meth or water injection. The turbo is just too small, and if you try to push it that hard without some assistance, you're simply blasting your way right out of its efficiency range. It just wont happen. In fact, you give it a try, see what happens when you try to push the car to 300bhp with the stock turbo. I want you to do the work and the tuning. If you dont have any problems with detonation, I will personally give you $100.

    The '02-05 WRX's ran 13.5psi target from the factory. On the same dyno, run an '02 WRX and an '06 WRX, the differences in whp numbers are negligible. Sure, you could put an '02 WRX on a Mustang dyno, say it reads 150whp, then put an '06 WRX on a Dynojet and say it reads 220whp, but in reality the actual power is minimally different. Again, give it a try and see what happens.

    I've done my research, I've done the tuning, I've SEEN the results with my own two eyes. Clearly that makes me the idiot here.
    You mean like this guy?:

    Dyno Results of My Protuned Cobb Accessport Stage 2

    He's only pushing 16 PSI, some people have gone up to 19psi (Donkey) and still made power, albeit that's pushing it to a limit.

    300bhp is about 225-240whp (20-25% drivetrain loss being taken into account here) It's easy to do on the 06+ WRX even with the stock snail. I think you're confusing BHP with WHP. BHP is at the crank, while WHP is after drivetrain and accessory loss. 240WHP has been done many, many times before without adding meth or an EWG. So, there my friend, you are wrong.

    Though you are correct about the AEM intake, it's doubtful that it's causing any lean issues, but it's not exactly impossible, just not probable.
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  9. #23
    Registered User RossLH's Avatar
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    I wont even look at the dyno charts and I'll tell you its a Dynojet.

    And no, I'm not confusing bhp with whp. What I typed was exactly what I meant to type. 240awhp on the typical Dynojet is not 300bhp.
    Last edited by RossLH; 06-12-2010 at 07:46 PM.
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  10. #24
    Registered User 06scoobyrex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anub1s View Post
    You mean like this guy?:

    Dyno Results of My Protuned Cobb Accessport Stage 2

    He's only pushing 16 PSI, some people have gone up to 19psi (Donkey) and still made power, albeit that's pushing it to a limit.

    300bhp is about 225-240whp (20-25% drivetrain loss being taken into account here) It's easy to do on the 06+ WRX even with the stock snail. I think you're confusing BHP with WHP. BHP is at the crank, while WHP is after drivetrain and accessory loss. 240WHP has been done many, many times before without adding meth or an EWG. So, there my friend, you are wrong.

    Though you are correct about the AEM intake, it's doubtful that it's causing any lean issues, but it's not exactly impossible, just not probable.
    +1
    Donkey has a video posted of his bugeye running a 12.45 with the stock turbo as well as dyno results...
    So if people are achieveing 240ish WHP and with how much power AWD cars loose in the drivetrain then that is well within 10hp of 300 to the crank.

    As for the AEM intake, the OP isn't tuned for this intake and he installed it himself. The probability of some small mistake is highly likley and his loss to a stock GTI is probally more driver error as I stated B4...
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  11. #25
    Good news, everyone! xxxxxxxAnub1s's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RossLH View Post
    I wont even look at the dyno charts and I'll tell you its a Dynojet.

    And no, I'm not confusing bhp with whp. What I typed was exactly what I meant to type. 240awhp on the typical Dynojet is not 300bhp.
    Granted, yes, it is a Dynojet, but you can't rely on any one dyno and have a verifiable difference in numbers. Mustang dynos read low, dynojets read high. The point of posting that though is showing how he still has room to grow, yes he's going to get into detonation territory with higher boost levels, yes he'd be better off with Meth, but it's not impossible to get that kind of power out of a TD04 on the 2.5L. A bit better gas would results in better numbers still, and an intercooler sprayer kit would add yet more power, or even better, a better intercooler.

    I'm not going to argue the advantage of meth injection in this case, it would make it much safer to do so, to say it's 100% necessary is a bit far fetched, same with the EWG argument.
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  12. #26
    Registered User RossLH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 06scoobyrex View Post
    +1
    Donkey has a video posted of his bugeye running a 12.45 with the stock turbo as well as dyno results...
    Id bet good money that he's running at least two of the following:
    E85/race fuel
    EWG
    Meth/water

    Did I say it was impossible? No, I said it was impossible without further assistance.

    Quote Originally Posted by 06scoobyrex View Post
    So if people are achieveing 240ish WHP and with how much power AWD cars loose in the drivetrain then that is well within 10hp of 300 to the crank.
    Dynojets read high. Put that same car on a mustang dyno, do the math, hell let's say 25% loss, and see if you end up with a 300bhp number.
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  13. #27
    Admiral Ackbar the 1st mycologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTA:LECT View Post
    lol... because lower boost means less power right? you're an idiot.

    the larger displacement allows for more power to be made on lower boost levels, while your 02-03 wrx makes 227hp on 14+ psi... the 06-07 wrx makes 230hp on 11.5psi.

    many dynos have shown that the 06-07 wrx puts down over 200whp, while the 02-03 wrx only puts down 170whp... even though it's only rated for 3hp less than the 06-07...

    i'd say that's pretty ****in underrated.
    1) You are lucky he handled that well because calling him an idiot is a personal attack and is completely unnecessary and against the rules. I'm letting this ride but please be more respectful.

    2) People need to realize there are two sides to a compressor map. Run a TD04 on a 2.5L and the increased flow at the same PSI pushes you to a lower efficiency island (for any reasonably high boost level). I.e. at the end of the day, you are hitting the limitation of the TD04 just as hard as a 2.0l at the top end. Put on a bigger turbo and this will change (eventually the 2.0l will achieve less top end unless it can reach a higher RPM like the ej207 in which case it is every bit the equal of a EJ257).
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  14. #28
    Moderator Donkey's Avatar
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    It definately wasn't me with the video. I don't have any footage of my car. Comparing the 02-07 WRX AEM intake to the 08+ WRX ones is comparing apples to oranges. Regardless of chp ratings the 2.5L WRX's bring on the torque. With is pretty important for a 4 cylinder engine when your trying to get a 3000lb car moving.
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