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    Registered User gastoys's Avatar
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    GTI More Sophisticated? Really?

    I have been reading numerous GTI Forums and even GTI junkies on WRX forums to learn that their impression is that the GTI is more refined, or grown up, or mature, and my favorite word they use to describe the GTI is “sophisticated”. Sure the GTI might have that “Apple” iPad feel to it inside with the Italian design steering wheel and cool blue dash lights. Why blue lights when it has been proven that the best lights for night vision is amber/red in regards to reading instrument panels? It seems to me that the GTI has gravitated to the “Liberal” College Grad crowd worried about fitting in with their wine tasting friends who all sport the latest and greatest Apple products. Could it be that VW with the Tourag and a history of luring hippies be a product of perception that the GTI is Sophisticated?

    In my opinion the Subaru is truly the winner in the mature and sophisticated area. The GTI sports an inline 4 cylinder engine that is the same technology design that can be found in a $9k KIA. What is so “sophisticated” about an inline 4 banger? Why is it that Honda can produce the same HP numbers as the GTI with their inline 4 cylinder, but VW can only achieve those numbers with a TURBO? Let’s see WRX HP = 265, GTI = 200. Hmmm, which one is more sophisticated now? Ok, back to the inline 4 cylinder topic. The WRX is a Boxer motor with the same technological designs one can find in airplanes and my favorite; Porsche. The boxer motor provides lower center of gravity and the opposing cylinders provide a smooth firing of those cylinders. Who else uses Boxer motors; BMW – motorcycles. If inline 4 cylinders are so awesome how come Porsche is not using them in their 911? So which is more sophisticated?

    Next on my rant is the drive train. The GTI is front wheel drive and again the same technology one can find on that $9k KIA. Is that really sophisticated? Subaru sports all wheel drive the same technology one can find on a Porsche, BWM 335XI, Volvo, Mercedes, Acura TL-H, Audi and even the $1.4M Bugatti Veyron. So which car is more refined, more mature, and dare I say again, more sophisticated?

    To end my rant there are arguments to GTI’s interior quality, 6sp and overall drivability. WRX owners may not be able to fix our interior quality, but everything else including a 6sp can be resolved via aftermarket including that Italian design steering wheel! You better find an engineer, welder, mechanic guru if you want to put a boxer engine with all wheel drive in your GTI. So if the GTI is truly more sophisticated then why is it using the same technology found in a $9k Kia, yet the WRX is using technology found in a $140k Porsche?


    Your thoughts!
    Last edited by gastoys; 06-02-2010 at 09:25 PM.
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    Registered User Zonked's Avatar
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    Pointless

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    He simply abides. SD_GR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gastoys View Post
    I have been reading numerous GTI Forums and even GTI junkies on WRX forums to learn that their impression is that the GTI is more refined, or grown up, or mature, and my favorite word they use to describe the GTI is “sophisticated”.
    The Golf has changed the world. Certainly not as dramatically as its predecessor, but significantly nonetheless. Whether it is more attractive or faster or even more sophisticated than the Impreza -- or any Subaru for that matter -- it is certainly more important.

    Sure the GTI might have that “Apple” iPad feel to it inside with the Italian design steering wheel and cool blue dash lights.
    The first Golf to win COTY had an Italian exterior too.

    It seems to me that the GTI has gravitated to the “Liberal” College Grad crowd worried about fitting in with their wine tasting friends who all sport the latest and greatest Apple products.
    I will not engage in political stereotyping, and in any case politics are -- and should be -- banned on the site.

    In my opinion the Subaru is truly the winner in the mature and sophisticated area. The GTI sports an inline 4 cylinder engine that is the same technology design that can be found in a $9k KIA. What is so “sophisticated” about an inline 4 banger?
    Here's an example: Unless I am wrong, VAG were the first to use >4 valves per cyl. in a production car (if we exclude the Maserati "6.36" motor that was I believe biturbo, 6-valved, and stillborn).

    Let’s see WRX HP = 265, GTI = 200. Hmmm, which one is more sophisticated now?
    The one with the smallest displacement and lowest fuel consumption.

    Ok, back to the inline 4 cylinder topic. The WRX is a Boxer motor with the same technological designs one can find in airplanes and my favorite; Porsche.
    The initial Porsches post-war, built under semi-clandestine conditions due to Allied regulations, used the most VW-derived parts. However the relationship continued for decades.

    Who else uses Boxer motors; BMW – motorcycles.
    The most significant users of boxer motors were... VW and Citroen. Other makers used them or still do, but none IMO were as important as those two in the history of modern motoring.

    If inline 4 cylinders are so awesome how come Porsche is not using them in their 911?
    They did use them in their 924 series all the way to the 968; this means they also used them in ultra-rare shooting brake variants as well as regular run of the mill Porsches -- originally assembled by... VW and using parts from... VW.

    The GTI is front wheel drive and again the same technology one can find on that $9k KIA. Is that really sophisticated?
    The first Golf to have AWD was the late 80s Golf Rallye, which had fender flares and looked a lot like a mini-Quattro or even more like a modded Golf, say, with Kamei bodywork etc. from that era. There have been AWD VWs for many decades.

    WRX owners may not be able to fix our interior quality
    I agree. Subaru might have or might in the near future but they're not entirely there yet either; still, I'm optimistic.

    , but everything else including a 6sp can be resolved via aftermarket including that Italian design steering wheel!
    My Impreza came stock with an Italian steering wheel. I bet yours did also.

    So if the GTI is truly more sophisticated then why is it using the same technology found in a $9k Kia, yet the WRX is using technology found in a $140k Porsche?
    This reminds me of a similar statement made by a great man once, and I'm paraphrasing, If dolphins are so smart, why do they live in igloos?

    There are companies that used inlines, Vs, and boxers throughout their product line; in fact I can think of one that used them for the same car series. I don't think it's the motor layout that really matters all that much -- though marketing does emphasize it as a selling point for Subaru (conveniently, nobody mentions that Subaru has also used inlines and Vs, or that Subaru also has offered cars with FWD etc.).

    Interesting topic and post.
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    Registered User 06scoobyrex's Avatar
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    Okay, the GTI is actually a great car and I've always liked them.
    There are a few problems with it as with any car...
    The electerical system has always been a problem
    They are quiet a bit underpowered compaired with other cars

    Honda can get the same amount of power out of their K series engine, but it uses high compression and I-VTEC to achieve those power levels.

    I think that they should put the new audi TT 2.0T with 265 hp and make AWD more available other then in just the R32 and make the R32 a 6speed manual instead of just the pointless paddle shifted automatic...
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    Registered User willryanm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gastoys View Post
    If inline 4 cylinders are so awesome how come Porsche is not using them in their 911? So which is more sophisticated?
    porsche uses a horizontally opposed 6 cylinder engine in the 911 not a 4 cylinder

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    Strictly for motorsport fans:

    1. The Golf was pure magic in the hands of Kalle Grundel. If you've seen them in action, you know (you're also getting old, my friend...).

    2. The Golf was insane in the hands of Kenneth Eriksson. If you've seen the knocked-down lamp posts, you know (and again you're getting old...).
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    Registered User gastoys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SD_GR View Post

    I will not engage in political stereotyping, and in any case politics are -- and should be -- banned on the site.
    I apologize if anyone took this as political as I was going for the word "Loose" and being 42 years old one is from the era that Liberal when used in quotes referes to being "Loose", but I was afraid someone would be offended by that term.



    Quote Originally Posted by SD_GR View Post

    The one with the smallest displacement and lowest fuel consumption.
    True, but then again 200HP in 2.0 is what Honda is producing with no turbos and about the same HP as the 1992 WRX that was a 2.0.

    Quote Originally Posted by SD_GR View Post
    The initial Porsches post-war, built under semi-clandestine conditions due to Allied regulations, used the most VW-derived parts. However the relationship continued for decades.

    The most significant users of boxer motors were... VW and Citroen. Other makers used them or still do, but none IMO were as important as those two in the history of modern motoring.

    They did use them in their 924 series all the way to the 968; this means they also used them in ultra-rare shooting brake variants as well as regular run of the mill Porsches -- originally assembled by... VW and using parts from... VW.
    So why not reintroduce the flat motors as they are a superior design than the inline four. Lower center of gravity, opposing cylinders.

    Quote Originally Posted by SD_GR View Post
    The first Golf to have AWD was the late 80s Golf Rallye, which had fender flares and looked a lot like a mini-Quattro or even more like a modded Golf, say, with Kamei bodywork etc. from that era. There have been AWD VWs for many decades.
    So why not reintroduce the AWD as they are a superior design than front wheel.


    Quote Originally Posted by SD_GR View Post
    I agree. Subaru might have or might in the near future but they're not entirely there yet either; still, I'm optimistic.
    I agree with you 100%! But for one to say the GTI is more sophisticated because it has a cleaner "Apple" like interior and more refined in the drive does not paint a true picture. My argument is that Flat Four is a better design than inline fours and AWD is superior to FWD.

    Quote Originally Posted by SD_GR View Post
    My Impreza came stock with an Italian steering wheel. I bet yours did also.
    Did not know that - definately not as nice as the GTI, did we get the guy who was fired from Fiat?

    Quote Originally Posted by SD_GR View Post
    This reminds me of a similar statement made by a great man once, and I'm paraphrasing, If dolphins are so smart, why do they live in igloos?

    There are companies that used inlines, Vs, and boxers throughout their product line; in fact I can think of one that used them for the same car series. I don't think it's the motor layout that really matters all that much -- though marketing does emphasize it as a selling point for Subaru (conveniently, nobody mentions that Subaru has also used inlines and Vs, or that Subaru also has offered cars with FWD etc.).
    True! But you're talking about yester years. I'm talking about today.

    What I am trying to convey is that sophistication is not just in looks or feel, but technology too! GTI brings "Apple" like interior, WRX brings Flat Four with 65HP more, GTI brings 6sp trans and WRX bring AWD, GTI brings refinement and WRX brings reliability.

    Why did VW abandon Flat Fours, AWD?
    Last edited by gastoys; 06-02-2010 at 11:45 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gastoys View Post
    I apologize if anyone took this as political as I was going for the word "Loose" and being 42 years old one is from the era that Liberal when used in quotes referes to being "Loose", but I was afraid someone would be offended by that term.
    No worries, this is a friendly discussion.

    Why did VW abandon Flat Fours,
    In favour of a more modern and sophisticated motor... an inline four -- and to save themselves from bankruptcy.

    Interesting: Two of the three most popular cars in history, and certainly two of the most important cars in history, are VWs. One uses a boxer, the other an inline.

    There are inherent advantages to a flat four in particular, since it is or at least should be balanced and not require the ridiculous balance shaft arrangements that, say, Porsche used in the inline fours (I think of it and get an uneasy feeling; I had a Mitsu with it and it was terrible by design).

    Incidentally, not only has VW donated inline four motors for Porsche, but Porsche themselves were commissioned to design inline four motors. One company for which they did so was Seat, for use in the Ibiza. Then Seat was sold to VW, bringing us full circle.

    Did not know that - definately not as nice as the GTI, did we get the guy who was fired from Fiat?
    Momo is still HQ'ed in Milan I believe. On early new age Imprezas the emblem read "Momo" but I think later on in the WRX variants and throughout in all the lower variants it did not have the firm's emblem - but was still a Momo.

    As for the guy fired by FIAT, it was Andreas Zapatinas who left Alfa (again in Milan) to work for Subaru. He got the blame for the B9 Tribeca's nose -- I don't know whether it was his fault though since Subaru went out of their way to deny his involvement -- and then left the firm. I don't know if he is among the list of unemployed Greeks currently, as the list is growing rapidly...

    AWD?
    They didn't abandon AWD. Not only did they introduce it to rallying, they've used it in their products ever since and continue to do so. In fact, they believe in AWD so much that they even insist on using it in products that are IMO clearly mistakes -- such as the fastest and most expensive VW ever sold, the Bugatti Veyron...

    Now, is the Golf without faults? Of course not. Somebody needs to find the guy that decided to locate a motor mount right smack in the middle of everything on the turbo motor so that it's always in the way when you're trying to change the timing belt. Find him and beat him like a bongo.
    Last edited by SD_GR; 06-03-2010 at 12:10 AM.
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    The Default One SeattleJeremy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gastoys View Post
    So why not reintroduce the flat motors as they are a superior design than the inline four. Lower center of gravity, opposing cylinders.
    Flat engines are more expensive to build, and not as efficient.


    Quote Originally Posted by gastoys View Post
    So why not reintroduce the AWD as they are a superior design than front wheel.
    You can get a GTI with AWD, it's called the VW R32, or the soon to be released R20, or any Audi.
    AWD systems are heavier, less efficient, and cost more than FWD models.

    Quote Originally Posted by gastoys View Post
    Why did VW abandon Flat Fours, AWD?
    VW stopped using Flat Fours because they were so closely associated with the Beetle. Which was an awesome car for it's time (1938). I'll let the first line of this wiki article say the rest.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswa...C_1974-1984.29
    In May 1974[3], Volkswagen presented the first-generation Golf as a modern front-wheel-drive, long-range replacement for the Volkswagen Beetle

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    RE: Apple and VW and wine connection etc. I don't drive a VW but I do admit my initial response in this thread was made from a quad core i7 Apple with a 27" screen; aluminium for the body and for the wireless keyboard. Gorgeous machine and very capable too. I could build a PC for cheaper but it would not be as elegant.

    Now, do I go to wine tastings and talk about how difficult it is to get a world class red out of Germany, or how Spatburgunder is more than a fad? No, but the fact that I have a passing familiarity with all that is at least a bit dodgy I'll admit...
    Last edited by SD_GR; 06-03-2010 at 12:29 AM.
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    Registered User gastoys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SD_GR View Post
    No worries, this is a friendly discussion.



    In favour of a more modern and sophisticated motor... an inline four -- and to save themselves from bankruptcy.

    Interesting: Two of the three most popular cars in history, and certainly two of the most important cars in history, are VWs. One uses a boxer, the other an inline.

    There are inherent advantages to a flat four in particular, since it is or at least should be balanced and not require the ridiculous balance shaft arrangements that, say, Porsche used in the inline fours (I think of it and get an uneasy feeling; I had a Mitsu with it and it was terrible by design).

    Incidentally, not only has VW donated inline four motors for Porsche, but Porsche themselves were commissioned to design inline four motors. One company for which they did so was Seat, for use in the Ibiza. Then Seat was sold to VW, bringing us full circle.



    Momo is still HQ'ed in Milan I believe. On early new age Imprezas the emblem read "Momo" but I think later on in the WRX variants and throughout in all the lower variants it did not have the firm's emblem - but was still a Momo.

    As for the guy fired by FIAT, it was Andreas Zapatinas who left Alfa (again in Milan) to work for Subaru. He got the blame for the B9 Tribeca's nose -- I don't know whether it was his fault though since Subaru went out of their way to deny his involvement -- and then left the firm. I don't know if he is among the list of unemployed Greeks currently, as the list is growing rapidly...



    They didn't abandon AWD. Not only did they introduce it to rallying, they've used it in their products ever since and continue to do so. In fact, they believe in AWD so much that they even insist on using it in products that are IMO clearly mistakes -- such as the fastest and most expensive VW ever sold, the Bugatti Veyron...

    Now, is the Golf without faults? Of course not. Somebody needs to find the guy that decided to locate a motor mount right smack in the middle of everything on the turbo motor so that it's always in the way when you're trying to change the timing belt. Find him and beat him like a bongo.
    Excellent discussions! The last VW that I truly loved was that Corrado VR6. I looked at the GTI and while I was WOW'd by the interrior, 6sp tranny and overall drive I was disapointed in the acceleration, consumer reports ratings in regards to reliability, resale value and the cost for repairs.

    I am really impressed that Subaru has stuck to their guns with the Boxer Engine and I just love the sound of those folks driving around in their modded WRX - nothing compared to the plain Jane sound of a modded GTI. I also like the fact that rain or shine you can just stomp on the WRX gas pedal and not have to watch the traction control light blink wildly at you while the steering wheel jitters left to right searching for traction. AWD in Seattle rain/snow is awesome! My wife had a V6 Accord with the 6sp tranny and that thing was useless with all that power in a stick because when you launch a front wheel drive car all the weight shift to the rear reducing weight on the front tires which then reduces traction more.

    Anyhow, I like the GTI, but IMO to call it more sophisticated is an argument I'm willing to debate.

    P.S. I'm really a Toyota guy since 1987 and this is my first Subaru and I love it, though it does bring back memories of the Celica GT4 - wow, what a car that was in it's day.
    Last edited by gastoys; 06-03-2010 at 01:10 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gastoys View Post
    P.S. I'm really a Toyota guy since 1987 and this is my first Subaru and I love it, though it does bring back memories of the Celica GT4 - wow, what a car that was in it's day.
    This lucky guy has the badge from one of the greatest GT4s ever made. Here's his pic of the plaque on the centre console -- it's from a GT4 SE Carlos Sainz! Autographed, no less. Those were the days. (The thread I linked from has a discussion about how the guy's car may not be a real Carlos -- but the badge is at least.).

    EDIT: The car itself is a real Carlos Sainz!
    http://forum.4tuning.ro/316-zona-teh...ta-celica.html

    Last edited by SD_GR; 06-03-2010 at 01:37 AM.
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    Administrator RayfieldsWRX's Avatar
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    The whole "us versus them" mentality with cars is sort of an adolescent thing. Move on, enjoy your car, and don't worry about what other people happen to prefer.

    VW builds many fine cars. I'd be proud to own a number of them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RayfieldsWRX View Post
    The whole "us versus them" mentality with cars is sort of an adolescent thing. Move on, enjoy your car, and don't worry about what other people happen to prefer.

    VW builds many fine cars. I'd be proud to own a number of them.
    I agree. I vividly remember having a conversation with some VW enthusiasts after I got my car and they admitted WRXs dominate GTIs in performance but their disclaimer was "but it is a Subaru." Seemed like a rather ignorant statement.

    The way I see it there are trade offs among performance, reliability, price, and luxury. Subaru definitely skimps on the luxury and that is fine by me.

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