stage 2 gti vs VF48 WRX

[xsnapshot]

John M summed it up very nicely. I don't know what else to add to this discussion. I feel like we're spinning our wheels here (almost literally!)...

Its true! lol. A bit of a wacky discussion. I enjoy the fact that it remains a discussion instead of turning into a bloodbath like i see all to often on NASIOC.

Sometimes I'm a bit picky when it comes to terminology (see: NERD ) and will push around little issues that really don't matter.

I am really impressed by the new cobalt SS, although I fear it will only be matter of time before it becomes a death trap for teenagers in my neck of the woods. I saw a lightly used 08 SS with a few mods go for 14k just the other month. That's some cheap power! Just wait two years!

[gigabytexbc]

my guess is that he beat me on the highway because of instant torque and horsepower from that 2.0T engine that's why he jumped me. he has basically no turbo lag whatsoever hence why i like those cars for daily driving. i have to wait for 3.5k+ for peak torque. now my guess is the new wrxs with their 2.5, well not so new anymore for 2.5L, fair much better because they are seeing peakage low 3s if not better with a good tune. not to mention when i was in range it was in 4th gear and the vf48 isn't exactly a highway turbo. it's quick as **** from 20-100 let's say but after that it dies. i mean i have videos of pulls and it's like WOW then PLOP after 100 haha and when we raced from 3rd gear i had to wait for it to boost and he had me bad. like i said, he just has INSTANT power which is a major benefit and a turn on for me haha. hence why i think the 09 wrx would fair much much better and is still an option and why he was able to hang with that cobalt ss. 2.5L just works so much nicer with a turbo it's almost instant power and can only be better with the tune. so it gave him the edge and we both made similar power but i didn't have enough power OVER him to catch up. i mean i'm at 280whp and honestly he's probably around 265 whp or so. not a HUGE difference. plus, now this isn't fact, but i think they're geared better for highway where as wrx obviously track.

[Wrinklechops]

my guess is that he beat me on the highway because of instant torque and horsepower from that 2.0T engine that's why he jumped me. he has basically no turbo lag whatsoever hence why i like those cars for daily driving. i have to wait for 3.5k+ for peak torque. now my guess is the new wrxs with their 2.5, well not so new anymore for 2.5L, fair much better because they are seeing peakage low 3s if not better with a good tune. not to mention when i was in range it was in 4th gear and the vf48 isn't exactly a highway turbo. it's quick as **** from 20-100 let's say but after that it dies. i mean i have videos of pulls and it's like WOW then PLOP after 100 haha and when we raced from 3rd gear i had to wait for it to boost and he had me bad. like i said, he just has INSTANT power which is a major benefit and a turn on for me haha. hence why i think the 09 wrx would fair much much better and is still an option and why he was able to hang with that cobalt ss. 2.5L just works so much nicer with a turbo it's almost instant power and can only be better with the tune. so it gave him the edge and we both made similar power but i didn't have enough power OVER him to catch up. i mean i'm at 280whp and honestly he's probably around 265 whp or so. not a HUGE difference. plus, now this isn't fact, but i think they're geared better for highway where as wrx obviously track.

The size of the engine has nothing to do with it. (Well, perhaps it does with regard to the Subaru motors, I don't know. I know the EJ257 is way better than the EJ205 and you are correct when you say it responds to a turbo much better than the 2.0.) But anyways...

I used to think engine size had everything to do with it, regardless of manufacturer, but then I researched the LNF motor on the new turbo Cobalt SS. It's only a 2.0. You would think for it to make power numbers on the stock turbo in excess of 350whp and 400wtq that the turbo would need to be large. I'm talking 18G+. With a big turbo on a small engine, how long do you think it takes to spool? That's right: forever.

And when it does spool, that's where you get your power. There isn't much NA grunt with a 2.0 engine to push you around forcibly until the turbo spools up.

The 2009 WRX (2.5 obviously) specs:

265hp @ 6000 rpm
244 lb-ft. @ 4000 rpm

2009 Cobalt SS (2.0) specs:

260hp @ 5300 rpm
260 lb-ft. @ 2000 rpm


So you can see the Cobalt SS has very usable power that makes for great city driving as well as highway pulls. It has already made and is holding peak power levels by the time the WRX is halfway to his power band. PS: the SS makes that torque at 2000rpm and holds almost all the way to redline. If you make torque at 4000rpm (WRX) and your car redlines or you shift before 6500-7000rpm, you are only using that power for 2000-3000 rpm. The SS is using that power across a much broader range.

Factor in the drivetrain loss and I am still somewhat skeptical about the 09 WRX that "only lost by a car's length" to an upgraded from stock tuned SS.

I know, on paper things look different than they do in real life. But still...

[gigabytexbc]

no i understand, much better powerband on these cars but aren't the 2009 wrx's stage 2 protuned making some great numbers AND on top of that have a great powerband. not to mention making over 310whp. i saw a video somewhere and it wasn't even a race the 09 killed the stage 2 gti. idk it's all weird and confusing and taking away from my Modern Warefare 2 playing.

[1fst4cyl]

Factor in the drivetrain loss and I am still somewhat skeptical about the 09 WRX that "only lost by a car's length" to an upgraded from stock tuned SS.

I know, on paper things look different than they do in real life. But still...

I guess i'm gonna have to record the next one

[gigabytexbc]

oh i believe you. i've been watching videos of an 09 untuned and it's keeping right up with gtos 40+ on, evo, crushes a gti but it's untuned but how much is a tune going to change that gti to keep up that much. not to mention did i mention to my buddy i'm thinking gti he's like "noooo gti my best friend just got an 09 and it's a beast" he has a list of everything he's beaten on the highway the only thing he's lost to so far is a modded and tuned ms3 by 2-3 cars, and all he has is a catback so basically stock. the list includes a bunch of srt-4s....big around here chicagoland area and he says he'll let me know what else. i just told him hey, whatever i sit in and feel more comfortable in is what i get.

[Wrinklechops]

no i understand, much better powerband on these cars but aren't the 2009 wrx's stage 2 protuned making some great numbers AND on top of that have a great powerband. not to mention making over 310whp. i saw a video somewhere and it wasn't even a race the 09 killed the stage 2 gti. idk it's all weird and confusing and taking away from my Modern Warefare 2 playing.

Yes, the 2009 WRX is one of if not the best WRX to come along in a long time. Stock turbo has great potential. Powerband is there, torque is there, etc. But make no mistake about it... the Cobalt SS has a better powerband, more torque, and less drivetrain loss. Also WAY cheaper.

If a Protuned Stage II WRX is knocking your socks off, just imagine the same thing done to other cars we're discussing i.e. MS3, Cobalt SS, GTI, etc.

I found some dyno numbers on a stock WRX:

226.8 WHP 230.4 TQ

(shoot, that's about where I was with my Stage II tuned 05 WRX!)

And even this guy on NASIOC in New York with more than Stage II mods only put down 308whp. 2009 WRX Dyno'd - NASIOC

And both the stock WRX dyno numbers and that tuned guy on NASIOC were hitting peak around 3700-4000rpm.

Anyways, I feel like I'm beating a dead horse. Here's an 09 Cobalt SS dyno "Stage 1" or whatever you want to call it with the factory GM upgrade from the dealer that costs $500 and a K&N air filter. Pretty impressive for basically stock parts with a simple ECU tune.



Crazy how a tiny 2.0 motor can make more torque at lower rpms than a 2.5 motor \

But in regards to power... here's a dyno of WHP on a Cobalt SS with similar mods as the 09 WRX from NASIOC. IC, piping, downpipe/exhaust, and intake. 320whp! The torque must be off the charts too.

[2004NeonSRT4]

does anyone know if the ss/tc has a variable vain turbo? that would make a lot of sense given its tq/hp vs engine size. my stock 2.4L srt4 neon made 229whp at 5300 and 261tq at 2200. the engine is .4L bigger and the stock turbo maxes at around 300-310whp. the numbers for the ss/tc doesn't add up.

maxed stock turbo srt, huge tq spike from over boosting and it fall way off up top cause the turbo is so small.

[gigabytexbc]

yea i've seen that guys dyno plot ect... and it's his perrin tmic that helped a lot but he'll need a bigger fuel pump to get more out of it and i'm sure the injectors are nearly maxed out. not to mention my tuner Jorge @ P&L not to brag but is one of the best in the game when it comes to wrxs and i've seen his tunes and peak torque is reached 3200k and around there and it's a very high peak torque and very safe tunes. from what my buddy is telling me the 09 wrx is fairing very well on the highway and it's just stock he's straying me as much as he can from the gti. you seem to want this cobalt ss haha, like i said i've sat in it just not for me. not to mention there was a lot of snow out there today so i figured what the hell let's see how my sisters jetta is. the other day with light snow was...OK today i was like wow this sucks. still have to test drive the gti to see if it's worth it though but it's 09 gti vs 09 wrx for me no others. my goal isn't peak power it's hatchback, better than my car for city driving, and quick on the highway but for under 2k in mods which one will be faster all around. honestly i think the 09 wrx not to mention i have a fair share of knowledge in the subie world. i also have a lot of friends in the vdub world. come spring they should be down in price for used ones as well but none the less the gti will be cheaper.

[Wrinklechops]

you seem to want this cobalt ss haha, like i said i've sat in it just not for me.

You've sat in it. Have you actually driven it? That's all I'm saying. I am not ever going to knock a car just from sitting in it on the showroom floor at a dealership or sitting in my friend's car in the driveway.

Everyone who has driven it has been impressed. Even the haters.

not to mention there was a lot of snow out there today

Next to AWD, FWD is probably the next best thing when it comes to snow. I live in Colorado and last time I checked it snows here. A lot. Maybe even more than Chicago. Having traction here in the snow when it hits is very important and don't think it doesn't cross everyone's mind when they consider car purchases in Colorado. A good FWD car with some good snow tires will handle just fine.

AWD means nothing if you don't have good tires. I wrecked my old WRX into the sidewalk at 5mph in my neighborhood in the snow because I didn't have my snow tires on. AWD won't save you.

[Wrinklechops]

does anyone know if the ss/tc has a variable vain turbo? that would make a lot of sense given its tq/hp vs engine size. my stock 2.4L srt4 neon made 229whp at 5300 and 261tq at 2200. the engine is .4L bigger and the stock turbo maxes at around 300-310whp. the numbers for the ss/tc doesn't add up.

maxed stock turbo srt, huge tq spike from over boosting and it fall way off up top cause the turbo is so small.]

Do you think the direct injection and a highly pressurized fuel system has anything to do with it?

I don't know... I guess the stock turbo on the SS is a K04 variant Borg Warner... that's all I could find right now.

[ElBartoRex]

Do you think the direct injection and a highly pressurized fuel system has anything to do with it?

I don't know... I guess the stock turbo on the SS is a K04 variant Borg Warner... that's all I could find right now.

Definitely.

The MS3 is a 2.3 running a K04 turbo. Mine put down 250whp and 277ft/lbs bone stock and the stock turbo is good for 320-350whp.

[Wrinklechops]

Definitely.

The MS3 is a 2.3 running a K04 turbo. Mine put down 250whp and 277ft/lbs bone stock and the stock turbo is good for 320-350whp.

Ah yea, that's impressive. What is your powerband like? Do you have any stock dynos by chance?

The KO4 must be a good turbo... I know Audi/VW has used it in some form or another for years.

[gigabytexbc]

best friends of the family live in longmont which is outside of denver near boulder etc... that place is subaru and saab central haha. one of the reasons i got it in the first place. warmer winters but when it snows it SNOWS there and yes you're right awd is nothing without the right tires and mine are going bald now so i'm feeling the effects. though awd with good tires is no contest better in the snow. like i said it's hatchback for me so SS is out but just for you i'll go and check one out maybe make a winner out of me. i was just playing in the snow and god i'd hate to lose awd...totally want an 09 but we'll see after test drives. one of my best friends has an 08 ms3 and he loves it coming from an audi a4. he says the powerband is great and he loves his interior. his gf, my bestfriend, even likes it. gti vs ms3 is hard for me both have their cons and pros, i heard if you talk to the dealer you can get heated seats installed in your ms3 because supposedly there is a connection somewhere. it's kind of an under the table thing.

[Wrinklechops]

best friends of the family live in longmont which is outside of denver near boulder etc... that place is subaru and saab central haha. one of the reasons i got it in the first place. warmer winters but when it snows it SNOWS there and yes you're right awd is nothing without the right tires and mine are going bald now so i'm feeling the effects. though awd with good tires is no contest better in the snow. like i said it's hatchback for me so SS is out but just for you i'll go and check one out maybe make a winner out of me. i was just playing in the snow and god i'd hate to lose awd...totally want an 09 but we'll see after test drives. one of my best friends has an 08 ms3 and he loves it coming from an audi a4. he says the powerband is great and he loves his interior. his gf, my bestfriend, even likes it. gti vs ms3 is hard for me both have their cons and pros, i heard if you talk to the dealer you can get heated seats installed in your ms3 because supposedly there is a connection somewhere. it's kind of an under the table thing.

I personally cannot stand hatchbacks. Reminds way too much of a Prius for some reason, or of some strange euro car, or a Ford Focus... Idk I've always been an anti-hatchback and anti-wagon guy. The only wagons I like would probably be the WRX wagon and maybe the Audi RS4 and RS6 series wagons.

Well keep us informed man. Sounds like you have some test driving to do!