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stage 2 gti vs VF48 WRX

23K views 134 replies 18 participants last post by  gigabytexbc 
#1 ·
ok so like it says, i have an 05 wrx with a vf48(used to have vf34 but it went) and i made 280/275 on a dynojet at p&l motorsports tuned by jorge. last night on the highway i ran a gti. did 4 pulls lost each one by about 3 car lengths each time. not sure of speed but figure 60/70-120. lost worst when he wanted to do a 3rd gear pull because i wasn't in torque range so had to wait for spool. so i told him to stop off some where cause i'm a HUGE vw fan next to subie. well, he's apr stage 2 running 93 octane with just forge dv and a downpipe that's all. he said it's a special apr tune that they made for a limited time that basically maxes out everything including the fuel pump which he'd like to get a new one. he said a guy that had the tune before him put down something like 270-280whp. my question is how the hell did he beat me THAT bad on the highway i understand drivetrain loss but THAT bad? also he weighs more than i do and no i'm a good driver haha so just rule that out. i'm a car noobie and not very smart at things of this nature. if bodybuilding is your thing i'm the expert there ;) but this no, so thanks for the info guys.
 
#47 · (Edited)
my guess is that he beat me on the highway because of instant torque and horsepower from that 2.0T engine that's why he jumped me. he has basically no turbo lag whatsoever hence why i like those cars for daily driving. i have to wait for 3.5k+ for peak torque. now my guess is the new wrxs with their 2.5, well not so new anymore for 2.5L, fair much better because they are seeing peakage low 3s if not better with a good tune. not to mention when i was in range it was in 4th gear and the vf48 isn't exactly a highway turbo. it's quick as **** from 20-100 let's say but after that it dies. i mean i have videos of pulls and it's like WOW then PLOP after 100 haha and when we raced from 3rd gear i had to wait for it to boost and he had me bad. like i said, he just has INSTANT power which is a major benefit and a turn on for me haha. hence why i think the 09 wrx would fair much much better and is still an option and why he was able to hang with that cobalt ss. 2.5L just works so much nicer with a turbo it's almost instant power and can only be better with the tune. so it gave him the edge and we both made similar power but i didn't have enough power OVER him to catch up. i mean i'm at 280whp and honestly he's probably around 265 whp or so. not a HUGE difference. plus, now this isn't fact, but i think they're geared better for highway where as wrx obviously track.
 
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#48 · (Edited)
The size of the engine has nothing to do with it. (Well, perhaps it does with regard to the Subaru motors, I don't know. I know the EJ257 is way better than the EJ205 and you are correct when you say it responds to a turbo much better than the 2.0.) But anyways...

I used to think engine size had everything to do with it, regardless of manufacturer, but then I researched the LNF motor on the new turbo Cobalt SS. It's only a 2.0. You would think for it to make power numbers on the stock turbo in excess of 350whp and 400wtq that the turbo would need to be large. I'm talking 18G+. With a big turbo on a small engine, how long do you think it takes to spool? That's right: forever.

And when it does spool, that's where you get your power. There isn't much NA grunt with a 2.0 engine to push you around forcibly until the turbo spools up.

The 2009 WRX (2.5 obviously) specs:

265hp @ 6000 rpm
244 lb-ft. @ 4000 rpm

2009 Cobalt SS (2.0) specs:

260hp @ 5300 rpm
260 lb-ft. @ 2000 rpm


So you can see the Cobalt SS has very usable power that makes for great city driving as well as highway pulls. It has already made and is holding peak power levels by the time the WRX is halfway to his power band. PS: the SS makes that torque at 2000rpm and holds almost all the way to redline. If you make torque at 4000rpm (WRX) and your car redlines or you shift before 6500-7000rpm, you are only using that power for 2000-3000 rpm. The SS is using that power across a much broader range.

Factor in the drivetrain loss and I am still somewhat skeptical about the 09 WRX that "only lost by a car's length" to an upgraded from stock tuned SS.

I know, on paper things look different than they do in real life. But still...
 
#49 · (Edited)
no i understand, much better powerband on these cars but aren't the 2009 wrx's stage 2 protuned making some great numbers AND on top of that have a great powerband. not to mention making over 310whp. i saw a video somewhere and it wasn't even a race the 09 killed the stage 2 gti. idk it's all weird and confusing and taking away from my Modern Warefare 2 playing.
 
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#52 · (Edited)
Yes, the 2009 WRX is one of if not the best WRX to come along in a long time. Stock turbo has great potential. Powerband is there, torque is there, etc. But make no mistake about it... the Cobalt SS has a better powerband, more torque, and less drivetrain loss. Also WAY cheaper.

If a Protuned Stage II WRX is knocking your socks off, just imagine the same thing done to other cars we're discussing i.e. MS3, Cobalt SS, GTI, etc.

I found some dyno numbers on a stock WRX:

226.8 WHP 230.4 TQ

(shoot, that's about where I was with my Stage II tuned 05 WRX!)

And even this guy on NASIOC in New York with more than Stage II mods only put down 308whp. 2009 WRX Dyno'd - NASIOC

And both the stock WRX dyno numbers and that tuned guy on NASIOC were hitting peak around 3700-4000rpm.

Anyways, I feel like I'm beating a dead horse. Here's an 09 Cobalt SS dyno "Stage 1" or whatever you want to call it with the factory GM upgrade from the dealer that costs $500 and a K&N air filter. Pretty impressive for basically stock parts with a simple ECU tune.



Crazy how a tiny 2.0 motor can make more torque at lower rpms than a 2.5 motor :wiggles:\

But in regards to power... here's a dyno of WHP on a Cobalt SS with similar mods as the 09 WRX from NASIOC. IC, piping, downpipe/exhaust, and intake. 320whp! The torque must be off the charts too.

 
#51 ·
oh i believe you. i've been watching videos of an 09 untuned and it's keeping right up with gtos 40+ on, evo, crushes a gti but it's untuned but how much is a tune going to change that gti to keep up that much. not to mention did i mention to my buddy i'm thinking gti he's like "noooo gti my best friend just got an 09 and it's a beast" he has a list of everything he's beaten on the highway the only thing he's lost to so far is a modded and tuned ms3 by 2-3 cars, and all he has is a catback so basically stock. the list includes a bunch of srt-4s....big around here chicagoland area and he says he'll let me know what else. i just told him hey, whatever i sit in and feel more comfortable in is what i get.
 
#53 · (Edited)
does anyone know if the ss/tc has a variable vain turbo? that would make a lot of sense given its tq/hp vs engine size. my stock 2.4L srt4 neon made 229whp at 5300 and 261tq at 2200. the engine is .4L bigger and the stock turbo maxes at around 300-310whp. the numbers for the ss/tc doesn't add up.

maxed stock turbo srt, huge tq spike from over boosting and it fall way off up top cause the turbo is so small.

 
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#56 ·
does anyone know if the ss/tc has a variable vain turbo? that would make a lot of sense given its tq/hp vs engine size. my stock 2.4L srt4 neon made 229whp at 5300 and 261tq at 2200. the engine is .4L bigger and the stock turbo maxes at around 300-310whp. the numbers for the ss/tc doesn't add up.

maxed stock turbo srt, huge tq spike from over boosting and it fall way off up top cause the turbo is so small.]
Do you think the direct injection and a highly pressurized fuel system has anything to do with it?

I don't know... I guess the stock turbo on the SS is a K04 variant Borg Warner... that's all I could find right now.
 
#54 · (Edited)
yea i've seen that guys dyno plot ect... and it's his perrin tmic that helped a lot but he'll need a bigger fuel pump to get more out of it and i'm sure the injectors are nearly maxed out. not to mention my tuner Jorge @ P&L not to brag but is one of the best in the game when it comes to wrxs and i've seen his tunes and peak torque is reached 3200k and around there and it's a very high peak torque and very safe tunes. from what my buddy is telling me the 09 wrx is fairing very well on the highway and it's just stock he's straying me as much as he can from the gti. you seem to want this cobalt ss haha, like i said i've sat in it just not for me. not to mention there was a lot of snow out there today so i figured what the hell let's see how my sisters jetta is. the other day with light snow was...OK today i was like wow this sucks. still have to test drive the gti to see if it's worth it though but it's 09 gti vs 09 wrx for me no others. my goal isn't peak power it's hatchback, better than my car for city driving, and quick on the highway but for under 2k in mods which one will be faster all around. honestly i think the 09 wrx not to mention i have a fair share of knowledge in the subie world. i also have a lot of friends in the vdub world. come spring they should be down in price for used ones as well but none the less the gti will be cheaper.
 
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#55 ·
you seem to want this cobalt ss haha, like i said i've sat in it just not for me.
You've sat in it. Have you actually driven it? That's all I'm saying. I am not ever going to knock a car just from sitting in it on the showroom floor at a dealership or sitting in my friend's car in the driveway.

Everyone who has driven it has been impressed. Even the haters. :wiggles:

not to mention there was a lot of snow out there today
Next to AWD, FWD is probably the next best thing when it comes to snow. I live in Colorado and last time I checked it snows here. A lot. Maybe even more than Chicago. Having traction here in the snow when it hits is very important and don't think it doesn't cross everyone's mind when they consider car purchases in Colorado. A good FWD car with some good snow tires will handle just fine.

AWD means nothing if you don't have good tires. I wrecked my old WRX into the sidewalk at 5mph in my neighborhood in the snow because I didn't have my snow tires on. AWD won't save you.
 
#59 · (Edited)
best friends of the family live in longmont which is outside of denver near boulder etc... that place is subaru and saab central haha. one of the reasons i got it in the first place. warmer winters but when it snows it SNOWS there and yes you're right awd is nothing without the right tires and mine are going bald now so i'm feeling the effects. though awd with good tires is no contest better in the snow. like i said it's hatchback for me so SS is out but just for you i'll go and check one out maybe make a winner out of me. i was just playing in the snow and god i'd hate to lose awd...totally want an 09 but we'll see after test drives. one of my best friends has an 08 ms3 and he loves it coming from an audi a4. he says the powerband is great and he loves his interior. his gf, my bestfriend, even likes it. gti vs ms3 is hard for me both have their cons and pros, i heard if you talk to the dealer you can get heated seats installed in your ms3 because supposedly there is a connection somewhere. it's kind of an under the table thing.
 
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#60 · (Edited)
I personally cannot stand hatchbacks. Reminds way too much of a Prius for some reason, or of some strange euro car, or a Ford Focus... Idk I've always been an anti-hatchback and anti-wagon guy. The only wagons I like would probably be the WRX wagon and maybe the Audi RS4 and RS6 series wagons.

Well keep us informed man. Sounds like you have some test driving to do!
 
#62 ·
AWD or not if you have crappy all seasons or dedicated summer tires you will get stuck and the handeling in snow will not be there, I noticed this first hand when last year i couldn't get out of a snowed in parking spot becasuse my tires were worn, this year I got some nice all season tires and the current 12 inch snow fall, wasn't a match for my WRX. I can bet that having a FWD with proper winter tires will beat an AWD car with summer tires on snow.
 
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#63 ·
I can bet that having a FWD with proper winter tires will beat an AWD car with summer tires on snow.
True dat :wiggles:

I have a friend with a crappy '97 Hyundai Elantra wagon, FWD. No anti-lock-brakes, no traction control, no nothing! He slaps a set of really good dedicated winter snow tires on there and gets around just fine here in the winter. And he lives in the mountains here in CO (Avon, Vail, etc) where the elevation is 8000ft and above. Snow up there is no joke.

And I completely destroyed my WRX rim and alignment by crashing into a sidewalk in my neighborhood just trying to turn from a stop sign a few weeks ago during a bad snow we had in Denver (5500ft elevation). I had my summer tires on. It was a disaster.

I would take any decent FWD car with a traction control system (Cobalt SS, GTI, MS3) and snow tires any day over a WRX with even just all seasons maybe.
 
#64 · (Edited)
idk my sister's has snow tires on her jetta and honestly, even with my semi worn tires it just does not match my wrx in the straight line in the snow, trust me i kept going up and down my street to find out. her traction thing kept going on and i wasn't going anywhere. wrx just got in and took off like nothing i swear on a stack of bibles. mine sucks around corners right now but it used to be GREAT and i just had yokohama all seasons. this is when they were brand new 2 years ago ha. yet, for the money and interior niceness the gti has appeal i just fear losing the awd. for reference idk how old her tires are but do good snow tires on fwd really make it that much better? wouldn't know. i'm going tomorrow for the vw dealership have it set up just going to look and then heading down a couple blocks to my usual subaru dealership and taking a ride in one depending on how much it keeps snowing cause well, it's still snowing.
 
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#65 ·
Did you not read my post above? YES SNOW TIRES MAKE ALL THE DIFFERENCE IN THE WORLD :wiggles:

My opinion on all-season tires are that they are a JOKE. They try to meet in the middle and they just don't do a good job of it. They aren't as good as dedicated summer tires in the summer, nor are they as good as dedicated snow tires in the winter. If you live in a place like Colorado, I think you should own a set of good summer tires and good snow tires if you want to get the most performance out of your car.

Since it's snowing, why don't you go test out all the cars you want to buy in the snow! Sounds like a perfect time!
 
#71 · (Edited)
well, i just remember when i had my acura integra gsr i was just driving staightline in the snow very carefully and all of a sudden spin out. that's when i decided F that kind of so i started looking at awd. 4 months later i had my wrx and haven't spun out, only time i do is when i see a patch of snow and just go nuts, it's almost like it's a controlled spin out. i just remember the first time i took it out in the snow i was like OMG lane changing soooo much easier, turns take to nicer and no spinning while taking off from stop lights. now braking is always an issue but i use the gears to slow it down nicely. even at the time when i was a noobie with it, i figured what the hell, there was a LITTLE snow on the ground this is when i was stock, and launched it in the snow, it was like heaven. i just really want to know what the gearing is like for highway driving with the 09 wrxs that's my question now. the gti obviously better than mine now, but how much better now? not sure.
 
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#72 ·
i just really want to know what the gearing is like for highway driving with the 09 wrxs that's my question now. the gti obviously better than mine now, but how much better now? not sure.
I'm not sure what previous WRXs had for final drive... I know the 09's have a 3.90 from what I'm seeing...

But hey, since you want AWD and power in stock form you might as well save up about $40k and buy yourself an STi or an Evo, or maybe $50k for a BMW 335xi or Audi S4.
 
#80 · (Edited)
no sti for me haha, and don't want to spend that much looking for a car between 16-LOW 20s that'll offer much better torque than mine for city and town driving, aka zipping around downtown chicago on a saturday night, be decent in the snow because almost half the year here is cold, and make power to beat the average modded car. would like a car that could beat that damn gti still can't believe he beat me that bad haha. it HAS to be a hatch for reasons and i want some creature comforts aka heated seats, moonroof, a nicer looking interior. also, under 30k in mileage and still some warranty left over. don't care about gas family business pays for it.
 
#89 ·
haha, i still got energy, i'm just fearing the stiff leg deadlifts. OK EVERYONE, i sat in both and i'm sorry but screw the GTI....the new wrx has SUCH A NICE INTERIOR and the gti interior is WAY overrated and and i was cramped in it. just everything about the new wrx i absolutely freakin loved i just had one big smile on my face and it wasn't even the color or a hatchback. the interior was just so nice, revved so nice, torquey perfect everything i could want.
 
#91 · (Edited)
nope, insurance would be 1200 a year(i checked) if that i have good insurance that cater to young drivers with no record(i pay 900 a year now) and it's under parents, not spending near 30k because i'll be getting a used one in about 3 months so more like 20-22k according to the dealership. they're my buddies there. i fluxuate right now between 200-205(depends on how many carbs i consume) 6'1" with a 33" waist baby, leaning out right now but i think im going to head into the offseason haha and i'll only be getting bigger. i'm pretty wide up top not small by any means and i have long legs. my cousin has a cobalt same year and i CANNOT fit in it very nicely. my dad back in the day wanted me to get a cavalier as my first car couldn't fit in that either haha. i'm still going to test drive the gti for the hell of it but i just felt so cramped in it even my gf was like you looked cramped but she loves me in the wrx. i'll even set up an appointment to test drive the ss for you. hell i'll probably like it more than the gti but just for you cause i like you. facebook JEFF AUE if you'd like
 
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#92 ·
nope, insurance would be 1200 a year(i checked) if that i have good insurance(i pay 900 a year now) and it's under parents, not spending near 30k because i'll be getting a used one in about 3 months so more like 20-22k according to the dealership. they're my buddies there. i fluxuate right now between 200-205(depends on how many carbs i consume) 6'1" with a 33" waist baby, leaning out right now but i think im going to head into the offseason haha. i'm pretty wide up top not small by any means and i have long legs. my cousin has a cobalt same year and i CANNOT fit in it very nicely. my dad back in the day wanted me to get a cavalier as my first car couldn't fit in that either haha. i'm still going to test drive the gti for the hell of it but i just felt so cramped in it even my gf was like you looked cramped but she loves me in the wrx. i'll even set up an appointment to test drive the ss for you. hell i'll probably like it more than the gti but just for you cause i like you.
Went looking on cars.com. Found:

09 WRX, 5000 miles, $29,995
09 WRX, 1754 miles, $28,886
09 WRX, 9463 miles, $27,695
09 WRX, 15,382 miles, $27,510

So... good luck finding one for 20-20k! Even in 3 months. The lowest I found was around $25k and that was with 15k+ mileage.

Being under the parents insurance is always nice. I'm one of those unusual types who had to start fending for myself at age 18 and didn't get to piggy back on the parents insurance or cell phone plans or anything like that.

Anyways, I'm 5'11, 215lbs, 33/34in waist...I sat in the Cobalt SS just fine. In fact, I couldn't stand the sunroof in my WRX because I was always hitting my head on it. It sucked.
 
#93 · (Edited)
well i have longer legs and shorter torso so my headroom was just fine so we're about the same size giving the 2 inches in height you're a little bigger. in the gym much? you should have a good build if you're waist is that small and at that size, bodybuilding could be an option ;) sorry it's my passion. i was at 225 but i dropped 20lbs in 3 months to lean out A LOT more. that's the last time i do a HUGE bulk. prices WILL go down it's same situation as when i bought my 05. i started looking at them in 04 around this time and they were going for 26k. 3-4 months later just like now i got it for 22k with extended warranty and it had 25k miles on it. looking for under 30k miles. i'll be piggybacked by my father forever(just like he was from his father who started the business) because i drive a cement truck for him, family business so that's my life. personal training on the side. even if i have to spend an extra 5k to get this car compared to others, for me it's worth it. hell i'll go win it at the casino i'm up 2k just in 2 weeks ha. lucky streak.
 
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#95 ·
Yea, I'm in the gym a lot :wiggles: I was up to 220 almost a few months ago. For my build, I was just too freaking huge. I couldn't even wear shirts I used to be able to fit into without looking like some steroid freak. Also, I wanted to work on a 6 pack and posture. Something I've never had and decided it's going to be my new goal in life. So I've dropped it down to about 210 now, trying to get down to about 200 hopefully. Been watching the diet, doing a lot of cardio and ab workouts, hopefully I can do it.

I hope prices go down for ya. I bought my 05 WRX in 07 with about 20k miles for $23k :eek3: - I really regretted that.

Good deal about the family business. I guess you earned it. I was more referring to the 25+ year olds I know that still rock their parents insurance policy, cell phone plans, you name it.

sorry, just had to say this, a new cobalt ss just drove down the street haha. they are sharp looking i must admit. i can't wait to test drive one for you, i might test drive it over the gti just for you. after all, i am a huge chevy fan, though i like stangs more than camaros. my dad has his silverado and corvette who knows, we could add corvette jr. to the line up.
Right on man, give it a shot! At least then if you don't like it I will shut up. :thumbup:

I'm a huge Chevy fan too, but only got into them and developed more respect in recent years. Used to be a Mopar exclusive guy, but the Corvettes, new Camaro, and many other of their new cars and trucks have intrigued me.

What I wouldn't give for one of these:

Hennessey Performance Engineering (HPE) - 1000hp Camaro

:wiggles: :wiggles: :wiggles:
 
#94 · (Edited)
sorry, just had to say this, a new cobalt ss just drove down the street haha. they are sharp looking i must admit. i can't wait to test drive one for you, i might test drive it over the gti just for you. after all, i am a huge chevy fan, though i like stangs more than camaros. my dad has his silverado and corvette who knows, we could add corvette jr. to the line up.
 
#96 · (Edited)
haha yea i love the old SS's and i saw a video of a cammed new SS which made me...wow, literally "came" close if you know what i mean. but for regular i prefer mustang gt over regular camaro. the gt500 is crap i'd take an 03-04 cobra over that any day it's one of my favorite cars. back to the bodybuilding, what basic routine did you use? i started an upper/lower split and results have been good with just 3 weeks. used to do bodypart split, but what got you up to that size, i always like to ask maybe learn something new ha. yep keep it up, it's all about nutrition. you should search the fat loss for noobs on the bodybuilding forum it's very insightful and has helped me greatly to get cut.
 
#97 ·
hi everyone. just wanted to put in my 2 cents. first of all, i wouldn't worry so much about being beaten by a VW in a 3rd gear pull, it's just not real world. the wrx would easily pull away on any good curvey road. second, a few pages back, someone was talking about how much better the wrx was compared to other AWD cars in the snow. 4 words: symmetrical all wheel drive. the equal length drive shafts (half shafts) make all the difference in the world, especially in rutted conditions. go race your VW, cobalt, mustang, corvette, or even evo, buddies in the rain from a standing start:)
 
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