This is a discussion on stage 2 gti vs VF48 WRX within the Comparison: WRX vs World forums, part of the Community - Meet other Enthusiasts category; 2006 GTI with forge dv, downpipe, and an apr tune that was only released for a special amount of time ...
2006 GTI with forge dv, downpipe, and an apr tune that was only released for a special amount of time that pretty much maxes the turbo, injectorsn and fuel pump. That's what he told me and I believe him
Soon to be Stage 2.5 WRX.....
have you ever ran a modded gti or ms3? i know wrx with the vf52 and supporting mods can make over 310whp easily i think that should be enough to stomp a 280whp gti, that's all i want haha. do you mean you can't stick with them or it's pretty much a dead even race from a roll at highway speeds? sorry i just do A LOT of highway driving(most of my races are done here) and i'm just a big awd guy because of the chicago winters but also a highway pull kind of guy.
Originally Posted by 1fst4cyl
Last edited by gigabytexbc; 12-19-2009 at 11:05 PM.
Soon to be Stage 2.5 WRX.....
hhmm I had an 08 GTI with very similar mods and that car was not a fast car.. Maybe since mine was an auto I dunno..
Lead Wrench @ WTF Tuning, LLC
These two will almost never be compatible. You want the pull power of FWD/RWD on the highway with the AWD traction advantage in inclement weather and from a dead stop. I just don't see it happening.
question really is, how much power would i have to put down on an awd car to beat a gti or similar fwd car putting down 280whp or so on an 09 wrx. i have a c6 corvette 6 speed btw but that's my summer and spring car and barely gets any miles on it throughout the year, just got a GREAT deal on it and i share it with my father so if i really want to beat these cars that's all i'd have to bring out. i'm just concerned about my daily driver haha because both the 09 wrx and gti for the money and keeping a stock turbo are easy to upgrade. just curious once again how much hp would i have to be making on an 09 wrx to pull a gti fwd car making roughly 280whp since that's what they can top out about on the stock turbo
Last edited by gigabytexbc; 12-20-2009 at 12:36 AM.
Soon to be Stage 2.5 WRX.....
What kind of Corvette is it? Non Z06? You could probably throw some bolt on mods on that (headers/exhaust, intake, cams, tune) and be flying.
09 WRX stock turbo is good for some power. One of the best turbos they have put on a WRX in a while. Apparently the stock turbo on the GTI has potential too. I wasn't aware of that until tonight. Cobalt SS stock turbo is also good for up to 350whp+ 400wtq. You wouldn't be too bad off with that either. Much cheaper too.
But in answer to your question... I really don't know the math on how much power you would need to put down in X AWD car to beat Y FWD/RWD car. I just know if the power is fairly equal (as well as weight, gearing), a 2WD car is going to win every time from a roll. But I suppose to beat a 280whp FWD car (how much do those GTIs weigh anyways?) you might anywhere from 300-340whp on the AWD WRX?- I don't know to be exact.
yep, i figured in that range 300 whp plus that is. it's more of a money issue(first time in 2 cars i'm on my own for this with no parents) i'll have to see if 09s go down in price by march which is when i plan on getting the new one. the cobalts are fast but...imo it's not worth having to sit in that interior. i need at least some style interior/exterior but that's once again an opinion thing. i'm selling mine because i'm already at 80k miles and it's started to show it's wear and no more warranty. want to get rid of it while it's still in good condition and can get some money for it. pretty much how i sold my last car.
i'd love to get a mazdaspeed3 but i've heard bad things about the engine and you don't get moonroof or heated seats 2 things of which i use greatly now even in my wrx.
the c6 corvette is just a regular in monterey red, but trust me...it's a beast none the less and since it's more my dad's he's the type of guy who says "just leave the damn thing alone" even though he put flowmasters on the mustang i think he's going through his midlife crisis so i might get lucky. just raw power step on the gas and there is just so much torque and *boner*. wish i could take him out right now but he's under his blanket haha. "let's face it, the vette gets em wet".
i still think i'd rather have the gti vs the ms3 because they are both at great prices right now. i'd get an 06-07 wrx but i'd have to turbo swap again and do the whole injector thing special tune etc... i just don't feel like doing it again. it was fine with just the downpipe and accessport back in the day but nooo i needed more power. these cars nowadays are just sick esp. on the highway with the stock turbo.
on a side note...i would get myself another rwd car such as an older SS or similar but i've driven one in the snow and idc how much sand you put in the trunk or how good your winter tires are...it sucks in these chicago winters and just isn't worth it. fwd i can handle and had to handle for 3 winters then i went with my first subaru.
Last edited by gigabytexbc; 12-20-2009 at 09:21 AM.
Soon to be Stage 2.5 WRX.....
I'm not going to try to talk you into the Cobalt SS and say that the interior is awesome or anything. I suppose if you enjoy things like heated leather seats, etc, the Cobalt SS doesn't offer that. I found the interior to be fairly decent though. Especially if you go with black.
The overall styling of the car is pretty modest, I agree. No huge wing (optional), no hood scoops/vents, no bright colored logos all over the thing, etc. I like the sleeper look anyways. Everyone is surprised when they get walked by a rental car variant SS.
Anyways, you seem pretty open minded about car choices. You're not against imports or domestics and I find that admirable. All I would do is urge you to go test drive a Cobalt SS maybe. Just see if you like it. You mentioned a warranty being a concern of yours and the SS comes with a 100,000 mile warranty. You can also get the factory dealer upgraded power package -GMTunerSource.com - Cobalt SS LNF Turbo Upgrade Kit: Official Update - which pushes it to 290hp and 320tq or so. Factory warranty intact. Costs $549.
Like I said though, the 09 WRX and MS3 would be good choices also. It all comes down to personal preference and opinion like you said. Just test drive all these cars you want and feel it out.
Keep an open mind and you'll be happy. I wish I could go back in time and buy a Cobalt SS though, personally. I think the bang-for-the-buck simply can't be beat. Brembo brakes, 18in wheels, flat foot shifting and launch control stock, dealer warrantied upgraded tuning, 100k warranty, and a stock turbo that will get you into the 350whp range quickly.
YouTube - Chevy Cobalt SS vs. 09 WRX, Mazdaspeed 3, and Four Other Sport Compacts - Car and Driver
Good luck man and let us know!
All this talk of a FWD car that makes X horsepower at the wheels, beating a AWD car with X horsepower at the wheels makes my head spin.
HP is purely a function of torque. The torque you measure as "WHEEL TORQUE" (consequently whp), is measured AT the wheels. I.E. AFTER ALL DRIVETRAIN LOSSES!!!
If you took two cars, one had AWD, and one had FWD. Now give them the same motors, the same gear ratios in the tranny, and the same gear ratio in the rear end, the same curb weight. (You'll obviously have to tune the AWD car to have a higher CRANK hp value to equate to the same WHEEL hp value as the FWD car)
Now assuming you had done this, guess what? The race would be a tie. Not from a dig, but from a roll as long as you were not traction limited, yes.
A 300 whp FWD does not magically make more than 300whp when it beats a 300whp AWD car. It simply has one of the following: larger power band/weighs less/has better gearing/or in some cases, better aero.
So you're saying that two cars completely identical, one AWD and one FWD, both with the equal amount of WHP, a race from a roll would be a tie?That's a negative ghost rider. Especially not from a roll!
Assuming you could even find 2 completely identical cars to compare with AWD/FWD/RWD options, the test would be inconclusive as any AWD drivetrain will weigh more than a 2WD drivetrain. Simple.
The numbers we have been discussing in the last few posts have all been WHP/WTQ numbers. The OP wanted to know how much WHP he might need to put down in his WRX to beat the 280WHP GTI that beat him. I don't know the exact number, but I do know it's going to need to be more than 280WHP
Perhaps something to start looking into would be power-to-weight-ratios (and I mean WHP/WTQ numbers), as I'm certain not many of us have access to or the inclination to be wind tunnel testing our cars for aerodynamic properties.
Last edited by Wrinklechops; 12-20-2009 at 11:27 PM.
So you're saying that two cars completely identical, one AWD and one FWD, both with the equal amount of WHP, a race from a roll would be a tie? If my stated above conditions are met, then yes. That is precisely what i am saying.
Assuming you could even find 2 completely identical cars to compare with AWD/FWD/RWD options, the test would be inconclusive as any AWD drivetrain will weigh more than a 2WD drivetrain. Simple.
No....see my post again. I stated equivalent curb weight. That includes everything. Drivetrain, engine, etc etc.
The numbers we have been discussing in the last few posts have all been WHP/WTQ numbers. The OP wanted to know how much WHP he might need to put down in his WRX to beat the 280WHP GTI that beat him. I don't know the exact number, but I do know it's going to need to be more than 280WHP
Perhaps something to start looking into would be power-to-weight-ratios (and I mean WHP/WTQ numbers), as I'm certain not many of us have access to or the inclination to be wind tunnel testing our cars for aerodynamic properties.
Power to weight ratios are also what i was hinting at. For this example, aerodynamics would likely play the smaller of roles in deciding the victor here. Gearing, weight, and actual whp would be the largest factors.
I just don't understand how. An AWD car with power equal to a comparable 2WD car will lose from a roll almost all the time! Why do you think Cobalt SS's and SRT-4's always eat up Evos and WRXs on the highway from a roll?
From a dig, that's a different story. There, AWD has the advantage. Assuming you are in a short race, you will probably win with AWD. But on the highway, from a roll at highway speeds of let's say, 50mph+, that's where 2WD has the advantage.
I'm open to an example... but there are none. I just looked into the DSM cars (Talon/Eclipse...) that were practically identical save for the FWD or AWD option. The AWD models always weighed more. It was only 200-300lbs more, but the fact remains. Same thing with the BMW 335 just for another reference. 335xi weighs more than the 335i.No....see my post again. I stated equivalent curb weight. That includes everything. Drivetrain, engine, etc etc.
Well if they are truly beating evo's and wrx's with x amount of whp, then basically all this proves is that they have a better power to weight ratio, perhaps with better gearing.
Bascially the only argument I'm making here is how these topics are discussed. Its a bit of a technicality.
whp accounts for all drivetrain losses due to how it is measured. Lets say you put an 08 SS on some dyno and it made 300whp, then put a 05 WRX on the same dyno and it made 300whp.
Lets even for a moment assume that the shape of the power band is similar. Both are making peak torque at 4000 RPM and both are making peak horsepower at 6000 RPM.
So IF the cobalt wins up top, then there can only be a few things that cause this. It has a better power to weight ratio, or it has better gearing. (barring aerodynamics).
My take is this:
In the real word they win so often because they really do make more power to the wheels, usually are lighter(an EVO X is 3500lbs! an 06 STI is 3350), and occasionally have better gearing depending on the car. Also it is much easier for the owners of said FWD vehicles to get more power to the wheels simply because they do not loose as much through inefficiency. This means when they push their motors to the edge of safety, they are often putting more to the wheels than their AWD counterparts.
all i know is that i got spanked by a stage 2 gti with stock fuel pump that honestly i doubt was putting down 280whp probably more like 260 whp(since ive searched all over and that's the most i'm seeing these cars put down) and i make 280/275 by jorge at p&l. from about 50+ he had me easily and he stated that down low is even more impressive. he respected the fact that from a dig i'd kill him but we both admitted that around here, just no one races from a dig unfortunately. driving was fine each time though i was doing the honking and he got a little jump i mean, there was no way i was catching or even gaining it was straight pulling. gti's have absolutely no turbo lag and it's like instant power to the wheels hence why i think he got the jump and just kept going. i'm sure a 2.5L wrx would fare much better because much less lag. look at the video on youtube of the stage 2 gti racing the 18g wrx which put down more power than i did and it was pretty much an even race with the gti actually keeping ahead quite a bit. the 18g turbo is a much better highway turbo than the vf48 as well and even just a stage 2 gti hung around. i think it's just because the gti has INSTANT power and it doesn't have to worry about peak power. the powerband is very nice. also, perhaps the gearing is better but they weight i think 400lbs heavier than my wrx and we both had a passenger.
Last edited by gigabytexbc; 12-21-2009 at 01:15 AM.
Soon to be Stage 2.5 WRX.....
FWD's advantage from a roll isn't power to weight and it isn't aerodynamics. It's because a FWD transaxle is more efficient than both AWD and RWD setups. Other than packaging it was one of their most touted benefits when they came on the scene.
I tried turbo FWD once and it was great on the highway but I'd hate to try to manage it at the power level my car will have in a few weeks (engine build). Without slicks and a prepped track it'd be useless until after 100. With AWD you take being able to punch it from 30 or 60 for granted.
John M
2000 Lincoln Continental - slow DD with the DOHC 4.6 and a Superchips tune
1992 Lexus SC400 - slow resto project
2005 Legacy GT Limited - SOLD Feb 2011 - Forged internals, FP HTA Green @ 22 psi.
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