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This is a discussion on Can a WRX beat IS350 within the Comparison: WRX vs World forums, part of the Community - Meet other Enthusiasts category; Originally Posted by SD_GR This is a civil and friendly discussion within the rules as far as I can tell. ...

  1. #76
    Wrinklechops
    Quote Originally Posted by SD_GR View Post
    This is a civil and friendly discussion within the rules as far as I can tell. If we follow the rules we will not get banned.
    Si. But in the past, emotions have run rampant and have gotten people in trouble. More specifically, me. Just didn't want that to happen again as I enjoy this forum and many of the people on it, including you Spiros

    Potentially, you do know at least one...
    I suppose. For now I will call you an anomaly unless the waves of anti-Corvette-ism come forth

    I haven't seen any sales figures outside its home market, where it enjoys a halo status for whatever reason, but I have only seen a few outside North America. Keep in mind that even losing the "Chevrolet" badge -- as it has in some of its export markets -- may not have helped much as far as I can tell (the figures would be interesting to see and compare to similarly priced cars etc.) Now, since the USD is very weak nowadays maybe the Corvette price is improving, I don't know.
    Perhaps that was GM's goal, to keep it a mainly US-based model? I doubt there were ever any plans to get a RHD model of the Corvette out on the market for example.

    I think your argument that because the Corvette doesn't sell as well abroad as it does at home is inductive and weak.

    On the outside, the styling is more acceptable. Although the Corvette has improved (it no longer makes me wonder whether the car came with a free banjo) its styling is still loud. The Lexus is much more understated, especially in gray. The Corvette has, well, "Corvette" almost everywhere, or that badge. The tail, the nose, the ****pit, inside, outside, all over. It's a bit too much for me.
    Styling? Really? You're going to prefer the Lexus over the Corvette because of styling? We are comparing insanely different apples and oranges here. I'm talking, these things are literally in two different leagues. One is a sports car, the other is a luxury family sedan basically.

    The physical appeal may be subjective, but I implore you to look to the styling of the Porsche 911 for example. Similar to the Corvette in the ways that they have tried to remain true to the original design. I'm not sure what you were expecting, perhaps a 4 door Corvette sedan, more like the Lexus you favor? The Corvette always has been and always will be what it is, much like the 911.

    On the inside, the Corvette's stance make it a bit of a chore to enter/exit, especially when parked in urban environments with tall sidewalks. On older (80s/90s) versions, the driving position wasn't ideal and the controls were odd (the pedals were huge and felt like rudders, the gearbox was strange until they switched to the ZF -- I think -- unit, and the fit wasn't great). I do like the later seats though, they fit well but aren't fatiguing.
    Not many people own these cars for their daily driver purpose, although they can be used as such. They are much more "race track" designed, and I'm sure people aren't complaining about the urban environment parking capabilities when they are winning races/championships. That said, I am much more a fan of the C5 and above Corvettes. The C4 is OK, but anything under that doesn't impress me one bit.

    How's that for meeting you in the middle?

    Also, I tend to buy the dealer, not just the car, and my personal experiences have made me favour Toyota over GM dealerships.
    Again, reasoning parts from the whole. Big "no no" in philosophy

    A while ago there were great deals on Corvettes, and if you searched you could pick one up for $40K or so. I think the people that did so, or the ones that picked up a mildly used example when the market began to plummet got a very fast car at a very good price.
    You can even find used C5 ZO6s for around $20k now.

    Did they get an interesting car? That's not quantifiable
    Interest is subjective, and as you pointed out you are highly critical of many cars. All I know is that I had yet to meet someone who was more intrigued by a mid-level Lexus than a Corvette. That was until today

    and when manufacturers try to improve them, they typically don't succeed... All they do is make them faster.
    I would say the new ZR1 Corvette is not only an improvement, but a remarkable engineering achievement. That makes it very interesting to me and many others. It has wooed the crowds in many countries as well, and has given cars that cost 2-3 times as much as it does a run for their money (i.e. Ferrari, Lambo, etc).

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  3. #77
    He simply abides. SD_GR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrinklechops View Post
    Si. But in the past, emotions have run rampant and have gotten people in trouble. More specifically, me. Just didn't want that to happen again as I enjoy this forum and many of the people on it, including you Spiros
    Discussions are what it's all about, and I've certainly enjoyed this one.

    I suppose. For now I will call you an anomaly unless the waves of anti-Corvette-ism come forth
    It's an extremely popular car in the US, and I'd be shocked if my view were not an anomaly.

    Perhaps that was GM's goal, to keep it a mainly US-based model? I doubt there were ever any plans to get a RHD model of the Corvette out on the market for example.
    Maybe I suppose. In Europe, only islands drive on the left if memory serves (think Cyprus or UK), but even LHD Corvettes on the continent just don't quite fit in IMO.

    I think your argument that because the Corvette doesn't sell as well abroad as it does at home is inductive and weak.
    I don't think so, because I think it proves the Corvette is a niche product, very suited to specific regional or cultural market demands. Almost any Soviet or Indian car is a niche product, for example - very focused targeting.

    Styling? Really? You're going to prefer the Lexus over the Corvette because of styling?
    Among other things, I've listed a few.

    We are comparing insanely different apples and oranges here. I'm talking, these things are literally in two different leagues. One is a sports car, the other is a luxury family sedan basically.
    The money comes out of the same bank account so I'm selective about how to spend it. My criteria and the criteria manufacturers assume I use don't always overlap.

    I'm not sure what you were expecting, perhaps a 4 door Corvette sedan, more like the Lexus you favor? The Corvette always has been and always will be what it is, much like the 911.
    The ideal car turns like an F1, accelerates like a jet, is more comfortable than a Bentley, and gets better fuel consumption than a Prius. The closer I can get to that sort of thing the better. The Corvette is very sporting but it's less appealing or interesting to me than a Toyota 4dr at this stage.

    Conversely, other, slower and less powerful, less refined sports cars are interesting. Example: Morgan.

    The C4 is OK, but anything under that doesn't impress me one bit.
    I have a thing for the 1983 due to its extreme rarity.

    How's that for meeting you in the middle?
    Interesting!

    I would say the new ZR1 Corvette is not only an improvement, but a remarkable engineering achievement.
    That's almost certainly true from what I've read.
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    Man is a brute.... If you're cruel to him, he respects and fears you. If you're kind to him, he plucks your eyes out. Alexis Zorbas
    I lied. I cheated. I bribed men to cover the crimes of other men. I am an accessory to murder. But the most damning thing of all... I think I can live with it. And if I had to do it all over again - I would. Benjamin Sisko
    DISCLAIMER: Opinions expressed are the author's alone and are inherently worthless.

  4. #78
    Wrinklechops
    Quote Originally Posted by SD_GR View Post
    I don't think so, because I think it proves the Corvette is a niche product, very suited to specific regional or cultural market demands. Almost any Soviet or Indian car is a niche product, for example - very focused targeting.
    As is the 911, Ferrari, etc.

    And the Corvette would be extremely expensive to produce in other countries, just as the Porsche 911 is here for example.

    Corvettes are built in one factory, that's it. I don't think GM considers it a priority in any manner to build a production plant overseas to offer the Corvette elsewhere.

    Among other things, I've listed a few.
    Like the urban parking capabilities of a sports car As if people who buy sports car are concerned about parallel parking? Most people who own a car like that make sure to park it as far away from other cars in a parking lot as possible!

    I can just see the headlines now...

    Next test: Shootout of the World's Best Parking Sports Cars! Who will win top honors in this ever important and crucial category for world class sports cars?

    The ideal car turns like an F1, accelerates like a jet, is more comfortable than a Bentley, and gets better fuel consumption than a Prius.
    Your ideal car is, shall we say, out of this world?

    That's almost certainly true from what I've read.
    Which is why I ask again if the ZR1 is any more appealing to you then?

  5. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrinklechops View Post
    As is the 911, Ferrari, etc.
    No, these cars are specifically intended for export. The last Ferrari I can think of -- actually, the only Ferrari I can think of -- that was actually intended for the domestic market is now 30 years old and long gone: the 208. Ferrari's main market at the time, the US -- not IT, not even what was then the EEC -- got the 308 model instead.

    EDIT: If one reaches a bit I suppose the Lancia Thema 8.32 is another Ferrari-motored vehicle intended for the domestic, not export market (and the only FWD car with a Ferrari motor I can think of but that's another story).

    Corvettes are built in one factory, that's it. I don't think GM considers it a priority in any manner to build a production plant overseas to offer the Corvette elsewhere.
    I don't know how much success they'd have with the car if the audience isn't preconditioned to revere it.

    Your ideal car is, shall we say, out of this world?
    One person from the US once said something like "we chose to do these things not because they are easy, but because they are hard..." It may not be attainable now but luckily, I'm not in the market for another car just yet.

    Which is why I ask again if the ZR1 is any more appealing to you then?
    Potentially I suppose -- but at the end of the day, all it seems to be is a faster Corvette. Does it at least have fewer emblems and badges?
    EDIT: Looked it up, seems it has more still, and the clear cover on the IC may be a deal-breaker. This is great news though for all ZR1 fans, as I'm not going to be in their way in line to buy, nor will any bidding I may do drive prices up...
    Last edited by SD_GR; 12-08-2009 at 01:46 PM.
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    I lied. I cheated. I bribed men to cover the crimes of other men. I am an accessory to murder. But the most damning thing of all... I think I can live with it. And if I had to do it all over again - I would. Benjamin Sisko
    DISCLAIMER: Opinions expressed are the author's alone and are inherently worthless.

  6. #80
    Wrinklechops
    Quote Originally Posted by SD_GR View Post
    No, these cars are specifically intended for export. The last Ferrari I can think of -- actually, the only Ferrari I can think of -- that was actually intended for the domestic market is now 30 years old and long gone: the 208. Ferrari's main market at the time, the US -- not IT, not even what was then the EEC -- got the 308 model instead.
    Perhaps that's because people here in the US could afford a Ferrari...

    I don't know how much success they'd have with the car if the audience isn't preconditioned to revere it.
    So they must do a mass mailing of Corvette loving drugs to their target demographic... "watch out, if you're 45-60 and you get some mail from GM, don't open it!"

    Yea, it's quite a shame that so many people are preconditioned to love a sexy, fast, fun, and unique car. What a weird bunch of propaganda that must require.

    One person from the US once said something like "we chose to do these things not because they are easy, but because they are hard..." It may not be attainable now but luckily, I'm not in the market for another car just yet.
    Ironically, the Corvette getting nearly 30mpg is about as close as you're going to get until they make cars that run on fantasy.

    Potentially I suppose -- but at the end of the day, all it seems to be is a faster Corvette. Does it at least have fewer emblems and badges?
    EDIT: Looked it up, seems it has more still, and the clear cover on the IC may be a deal-breaker. This is great news though for all ZR1 fans, as I'm not going to be in their way in line to buy, nor will any bidding I may do drive prices up...
    The clear cover on the ZR1, interestingly enough, is reminiscent of Lambo, Ferrari, etc. They're trying to show the craftsmanship.

    I suppose it's nothing to note that a very boring American pushrod engine driven car made it around the Nurburgring in a record time of 7:26, one second off from a Ferrari Enzo that costs insanely more than the Vette.

    I don't expect to convince you to buy a ZR1, nor do I expect you to ever appreciate it for what it is, not for what it isn't. I certainly am not going to be able to afford a ZR1 any time in the near future. It's just fun to celebrate a car's capabilities. You don't have to be such a killjoy

    There was a Motor Trend (I think) test conducted recently about which of the half-ton work trucks were the best. They seem to have this debate every year when a new model comes out. It's always the Silverado, Ram, F150, Tundra, etc. I was watching this video on it the other day, and they were praising the Silverado's new 400+hp and tq engine, saying it had the most capability of all the other trucks (power, towing), best suspension, etc etc. But in the end they criticized it for having small interior buttons. This seems to be the most minute point to focus on... you don't go to buy a truck for serious work purposes only to say "ah you know, those buttons were just a little too small Jim! I don't care if it tows the most, has the most power, handles the best, etc, I just can't stand those buttons!"

    It just reminded me of your criticism of the Corvette. It's OK if it's not your cup of tea... just don't hate on it because of minute things like the urban parking capabilities and comfort factor (since when was a sports car comfortable for long cross-country trips with the family?).

  7. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrinklechops View Post
    Perhaps that's because people here in the US could afford a Ferrari...
    Tax purposes, equating to the same thing. In the US, displacement has not been taxed. In other countries, the wealthy are taxed as wealthy above a certain displacement. In IT at the time, it was 2000cc, so the 208 has a just-below-the-limit V8.

    Ironically, the Corvette getting nearly 30mpg is about as close as you're going to get until they make cars that run on fantasy.
    For how fast it is this is very good. There are more economical sports cars but they are not as quick.

    The clear cover on the ZR1, interestingly enough, is reminiscent of Lambo, Ferrari, etc. They're trying to show the craftsmanship.
    They don't need to yell as much.

    I suppose it's nothing to note that a very boring American pushrod engine driven car made it around the Nurburgring in a record time of 7:26, one second off from a Ferrari Enzo that costs insanely more than the Vette.
    Can't say I'm crazy about the Enzo either, and in any case yes, it's not something I'm concerned about.

    You don't have to be such a killjoy
    That and my personal hygiene keep my phone bill low.

    There was a Motor Trend (I think) test conducted recently about which of the half-ton work trucks were the best. They seem to have this debate every year when a new model comes out. It's always the Silverado, Ram, F150, Tundra, etc. I was watching this video on it the other day, and they were praising the Silverado's new 400+hp and tq engine, saying it had the most capability of all the other trucks (power, towing), best suspension, etc etc. But in the end they criticized it for having small interior buttons.
    I like the Allison transmission on the Silverado I'm familiar with. My critique isn't the buttons themselves, but what they fail to do - it has a bit of an electrical issue once in a while with the windows etc. Nothing that'd keep me from saying it's a terrific truck though.

    It just reminded me of your criticism of the Corvette. It's OK if it's not your cup of tea... just don't hate on it because of minute things like the urban parking capabilities and comfort factor (since when was a sports car comfortable for long cross-country trips with the family?).
    Maybe you've struck how the Corvette has failed: specifically because I don't hate on it. It has failed to move me in either direction. It's extremely fast and extremely capable, and... well I don't care. Everyone buy one, enjoy it, drive it in good health, congratulations. Mod them, keep them museum clean, polish them, keep them dirty, have a ball. Nothing against them, and I'm happy for people that enjoy them (friends in person, friends online etc.). I like the blue and the red they've made recently, and I like the idea of a split rear window I think and hope they make it. I'm elsewhere though when it comes to car choices...
    WRX Info Links, Courtesy TheJ
    Man is a brute.... If you're cruel to him, he respects and fears you. If you're kind to him, he plucks your eyes out. Alexis Zorbas
    I lied. I cheated. I bribed men to cover the crimes of other men. I am an accessory to murder. But the most damning thing of all... I think I can live with it. And if I had to do it all over again - I would. Benjamin Sisko
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  8. #82
    Admiral Ackbar the 1st mycologist's Avatar
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    I have to say it is quite simple. The gestalt of a car either appeals to you or it doesn't. If everyone around the world wanted a vette there would be no need for a DB9.

    Both do it for me but in both cases the older ones tear more at my heart. Maybe it is just because I haven't ridden in a new one but to me it isn't as much about how fast you are actually goins as it is about how fast you feel.
    "From a little spark may burst a mighty flame." - Dante
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  9. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by mycologist View Post
    I have to say it is quite simple. The gestalt of a car either appeals to you or it doesn't.
    This would have saved lots of bandwidth had I come up with the wits to state it so effectively. This is exactly it.
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    Man is a brute.... If you're cruel to him, he respects and fears you. If you're kind to him, he plucks your eyes out. Alexis Zorbas
    I lied. I cheated. I bribed men to cover the crimes of other men. I am an accessory to murder. But the most damning thing of all... I think I can live with it. And if I had to do it all over again - I would. Benjamin Sisko
    DISCLAIMER: Opinions expressed are the author's alone and are inherently worthless.

  10. #84
    Admiral Ackbar the 1st mycologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SD_GR View Post
    This would have saved lots of bandwidth had I come up with the wits to state it so effectively. This is exactly it.
    It is so hard when you have to try to put your finger on explaining a "feeling". It is like trying to explain to a girl why you don't love her.

    My personal opinion is that a small light car can give the feeling of supercar performance and you can actually experience the dynamics of the vehicle at lower speeds. Kind of like a go-cart - everything happens below 90 but you get all the sensations of a F1 car other than outright speed. Then again, this is from someone who really enjoyed their RE92s.

    If I was looking for modern vette performance I would probably get a sport bike and just throw it all to the wind.
    "From a little spark may burst a mighty flame." - Dante
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  11. #85
    Wrinklechops
    Quote Originally Posted by SD_GR View Post
    Tax purposes, equating to the same thing. In the US, displacement has not been taxed. In other countries, the wealthy are taxed as wealthy above a certain displacement. In IT at the time, it was 2000cc, so the 208 has a just-below-the-limit V8.
    We do have the gas guzzler tax... and the car companies here will soon be mandated to build smaller and more "Euro" cars, ditching the performance category almost altogether. At least, that's what I see happening. Then the higher displacement performance engines will be even more rare and unaffordable than they already are.

    They don't need to yell as much.
    The clear cover is tiny in comparison to the Ferrari and Lambo entire hoods that were/are clear.

    Can't say I'm crazy about the Enzo either, and in any case yes, it's not something I'm concerned about.
    I'm not crazy about the Enzo either, but figured you would be based on it's "exotic" and "export" intentions.

    That and my personal hygiene keep my phone bill low.
    If the shoe fits...

    I like the Allison transmission on the Silverado I'm familiar with. My critique isn't the buttons themselves, but what they fail to do - it has a bit of an electrical issue once in a while with the windows etc. Nothing that'd keep me from saying it's a terrific truck though.
    The Allison tranny is fantastic, but only offered on the 2500 and above Duramax diesel trucks...

    Maybe you've struck how the Corvette has failed: specifically because I don't hate on it. It has failed to move me in either direction. It's extremely fast and extremely capable, and... well I don't care. Everyone buy one, enjoy it, drive it in good health, congratulations. Mod them, keep them museum clean, polish them, keep them dirty, have a ball. Nothing against them, and I'm happy for people that enjoy them (friends in person, friends online etc.). I like the blue and the red they've made recently, and I like the idea of a split rear window I think and hope they make it. I'm elsewhere though when it comes to car choices...

    The Corvette hasn't failed because it has failed to move you. It has moved countless generations past and many to come.

    But I respect your tastes...

  12. #86
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    Interesting discussion, even if it's off topic a bit.
    I owned a Miata about 5 years ago, and loved the car. Test drove a new Corvette at one of those Auto Show in Motion days (while I owned the Miata). It felt big and heavy. I would have preferred the Miata with more power to the Vette. I was planning on turbo charging the Miata, but another project took priority and I ended up selling it. This past year I decided to get another car. Granted it needed to serve as a daily driver as well, so I began listing things I was looking for in a car. Seat more than 2, AWD... This is how I ended up with the Subie. If I were to be able to afford a strict play car, I'd probably choose something other than the Vette, although my wife would really like to have one, so who knows. If I had enough money to have a large car collection, I'd probably include a Vette, but there are definately other cars I'd purchase first.

    As mentioned, some cars just have a way of getting to you. The Corvette has not really been one of those for me, although I do appreciate them, and think they are cool...
    '07 SWP STi, Stage 2, Sways, Springs

  13. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaidmaster View Post
    I owned a Miata about 5 years ago, and loved the car. Test drove a new Corvette at one of those Auto Show in Motion days (while I owned the Miata). It felt big and heavy. I would have preferred the Miata with more power to the Vette.
    Did you look at the Honda instead? I have and they're tempting, but they're getting up there in (new car) price.
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    Man is a brute.... If you're cruel to him, he respects and fears you. If you're kind to him, he plucks your eyes out. Alexis Zorbas
    I lied. I cheated. I bribed men to cover the crimes of other men. I am an accessory to murder. But the most damning thing of all... I think I can live with it. And if I had to do it all over again - I would. Benjamin Sisko
    DISCLAIMER: Opinions expressed are the author's alone and are inherently worthless.

  14. #88
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    I've had a Honda (81 accord) and loved it but an I4 isn't for me in a sports car. They are just too smooth and uneventful even though they are fantastic and potentially powerful motors. In addition to the price, this is what slightly puts me off of something like an Elise. I6 is a completely different story though.

    I'm still sold on a Beck Speedster on paper at least. It seems like you get a lot more of less especially if you go with the DeDion rear and air-cooled options.
    Last edited by mycologist; 12-09-2009 at 06:18 PM.
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  15. #89
    Registered User Jaidmaster's Avatar
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    S2000? A buddy at work had one. I kinda like the "underdog" aspect of the Miata - you know, the "cute chick car" that dominates the track. I'll admit the S2K is interesting, but I'd probably go with the aftermarket turbo Miata. Hard to say 100% until I was in the position though.

    Quote Originally Posted by SD_GR View Post
    Did you look at the Honda instead? I have and they're tempting, but they're getting up there in (new car) price.
    '07 SWP STi, Stage 2, Sways, Springs

  16. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaidmaster View Post
    S2000? A buddy at work had one. I kinda like the "underdog" aspect of the Miata - you know, the "cute chick car" that dominates the track. I'll admit the S2K is interesting, but I'd probably go with the aftermarket turbo Miata. Hard to say 100% until I was in the position though.
    I once saw an early 90's miata advertised on ebay with a small-block V8 in it. This wasn't any show car either--I think it had 70-80k miles on it.

    Now that would be one helluva car.

    In addition to the price, this is what slightly puts me off of something like an Elise.
    Even if a 4-cylinder isn't for you, you cannot at all argue with the performance of an elise. Over here in Europe I rolled up to this gorgeous brand new one painted baby blue with orange pinstripes (kinda like an old GT-40!) and it completely left me behind at a light. Granted, I eventually caught up and presented a friendly yet jealous wave. That kind of performance--basically a 4-second 0-60, at that price can't be put down.

    Then again....practicality is a very different story. But, then again, I wouldn't necessarily buy a high-end sports car to be used as a DD either.
    Wow, this car rocks.

    I live on the autobahns of Germany

    Ravens for life.

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