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This is a discussion on 2010 Hyundai Genesis within the Comparison: WRX vs World forums, part of the Community - Meet other Enthusiasts category; Originally Posted by Wrinklechops All I simply stated was that I think the US makes V8s better than most everyone ...

  1. #61
    Admiral Ackbar the 1st mycologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrinklechops View Post
    All I simply stated was that I think the US makes V8s better than most everyone else, historically. It's always been our thing to make big displacement powerful motors. Horsepower per liter was also never our big thing. The reason people in Japan don't buy our V8s (someone pointed out, I forget who) is because they can't! Has anyone seen the price of gas in Japan? Heck, they buy some oil from us in fact. Japan's gas prices are like triple what ours are. Same with Germany. They can't AFFORD to have a V8 engine that gets 13mpg lol. Here's a good example I think: take the STi engine. EJ257. That's our USDM motor. In Japan they don't get to play with 2.5 displacement because they have limits on that. They have to squeeze that same power out of a 2.0 liter engine. They have to build it stronger and rev it higher to achieve the same power we can get from a slightly larger displacement engine. I'm sure the Japanese would love to have the option of being able to do that but they are limited and cannot. Now, I'm sure I am going to invoke all kinds of comments and discussion about how the US shouldn't be making big V8s and we should also adopt smaller engine policies, etc etc, but let's not go there please.

    Fanboy out.



    Exactly, I agree. *sigh* we've gotten so lost in the miscommunication. When I mentioned that list, that was for ANY engine manufacturer for the US domestic market. Subaru was on there, BMW was on there, Audi/VW was on there, Honda was on there, etc etc. I never said other companies couldn't make good V8s, I just said it really hasn't been their "thing" until recently.



    Correct. And who has partnerships with these companies to produce great engines here in the US?

    GM and Isuzu are together on the diesel Duramax trucks for Chevy and GMC. Mercedes/Chrysler/Dodge also has the Cummins diesel engine if I'm not mistaken.

    And slightly off topic, a very large percentage of the European auto market are diesel engines from all types of auto manufacturers. There's a reason Subaru's boxer diesel is over in Europe right now but is either not going to come to our shores or is taking a long time to get here. Maybe the boat got lost.
    I'm going to shoot you down some first then help you out a little at the end (again).

    The bit about JDM subies is full of wrong. They get to buy better built motors because they favor their own market (or maybe more people there expect that etc.) and they get to use smaller displacement to make higher power because their gasoline is superior. They do get to play with the bigger motors (there is a JDM ej25), bigger turbos, and even twinscroll setups that we don't get, but they are heavily taxed for higher displacement of the 2.5l. The fuel is also heavily taxed I'm sure. Why? Because of pollution would be my guess. Let's leave it at that and not turn this into a debate on regulation....

    Also, I didn't look back but it seemed to me that BMW's V8s always placed well above the GM ones when both were available.

    The one thing I will say is that is in your favor is I don't recall seeing any non-US based built V8s making anywhere near what I have read of in US-platform drag cars. I'm not sure if that is accurate though.
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  3. #62
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  4. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by RayfieldsWRX View Post
    I keep squinting at the page, but the stone yields no blood.
    I remember being young and thinking that debate for debate's sake was important.

    I also remember being told I was getting a jetpack by year 2000 growing up in the USA in the early 70's.

    The V8 was introduced to the market by De Dion, for whom the famous dead axle is also named (although he doesn't get credit for inventing that either). He was a very large Frenchman who figured he needed a bigger motor than what he had:


    US automakers made the first mass productions, starting with Cadillac, and made some of the major initial improvements. Beyond that (i.e. 1920's or so) we have no claim to it over other parts of the world.

    Also, a straight 6 is a much better application for large trucks and is what is typically used.
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  5. #64
    Wrinklechops
    Quote Originally Posted by SD_GR View Post
    Sorry but I've lost the plot.

    Assuming the reason isn't really that the boat got lost, what do you feel the reason might be?
    Honestly, without getting into a political debate about our EPA regulations, that's sort of where I think it's at. I think we have stricter standards here in the US than in Europe when it comes to what kinds of safety and emissions tests have to be done on a vehicle before we'll accept it in the US. I think we have a longer time test too, to wait and see what kind of problems may or may not arise with a vehicle before it's accepted here. Who knows, I may be wrong, but that's what I think. I know BMW has had great success and many diesel cars in Europe (the UK anyways) for years, yet we only started getting the BMW diesel last year I think? Not sure why that is. I'm sure some of it could do with the stigma that diesel has here in the US. Diesel engines today are not the ones we remember from the 70s, 80s, and even the 90s. They're better and we should give them another chance here in the US if you ask me

    Quote Originally Posted by mycologist View Post
    I'm going to shoot you down some first then help you out a little at the end (again).

    The bit about JDM subies is full of wrong. They get to buy better built motors because they favor their own market (or maybe more people there expect that etc.) and they get to use smaller displacement to make higher power because their gasoline is superior. They do get to play with the bigger motors (there is a JDM ej25), bigger turbos, and even twinscroll setups that we don't get, but they are heavily taxed for higher displacement of the 2.5l. The fuel is also heavily taxed I'm sure. Why? Because of pollution would be my guess. Let's leave it at that and not turn this into a debate on regulation....

    Also, I didn't look back but it seemed to me that BMW's V8s always placed well above the GM ones when both were available.

    The one thing I will say is that is in your favor is I don't recall seeing any non-US based built V8s making anywhere near what I have read of in US-platform drag cars. I'm not sure if that is accurate though.
    Thanks Myco

    You're right, there is a JDM EJ25, but that's a non-turbo model. I guess what I was trying to specifically point to was their STi vs our STi for example.

    Is Japan's gasoline superior to ours? I don't see how this would be the reason necessarily for smaller displacement, but it could be a factor. I pointed out their gas is also much more expensive than ours, which could also be a factor in their need for a smaller displacement engine equaling more mpg.

    To say that because they don't want to buy our V8 engines shouldn't be a measure of the V8's success or engineering quality - I just think they have a different mentality and culture in Japan for example than we do. I think they sell us the 2.5 engine in the STi for example for a reason - because they can and they know we'll buy it. They also know higher displacement = more torque which we love in America. Typically, we don't enjoy high rpm small displacement engines. We like larger displacement-low-end-torquey-type of engines it seems.
    Last edited by Wrinklechops; 09-14-2009 at 06:56 PM. Reason: spelling
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  6. #65
    Registered User John M's Avatar
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    Mercedes makes their own diesel engines. Dodge uses Cummins in their trucks but the car lines don't share anything with the trucks. The Dodge Sprinter van uses a 2.7 liter Mercedes diesel.

    Mercedes makes some big gasoline engines too. Look at any of their current 63-series cars for v8's, not to mention their standard production 500-series sedans and coupes.

    My brother's CL65 AMG makes 605hp and 740tq from its 6.0 liter v12. That's big cubes and forced induction, and it's hand-built by one of the 20 AMG craftsmen on the v12 team. I'd call that a HUGE world-class engine. If you can afford the car, you can afford the 10 mpg in town.
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  7. #66
    Wrinklechops
    Quote Originally Posted by John M View Post
    If you can afford the car, you can afford the 10 mpg in town.
    Well said.
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  8. #67
    Wrinklechops
    Some of these people are lost....I've expressed some of why that is so, and some of why their logic is totally flawed in comparing "markets" and engines, and thereby bashing the 350 and other American v8s. I could make a full-time career out of providing supporting evidence to the contrary, but to be honest it's 430 in the morning and I don't have the energy to begin it again tonight. I will say though, that as a fellow automotive enthusiast for the past 27 years (since I was 11, been thinking, reading, talking about nothing but cars, and later working on them, and owned or been closely involved with a car from almost every major manufacturer, in some cases multiple cars), I used to be of that same school of thought (any v8 engine from America was bland, and by nature, probably any engine that was in vehicles that I didn't consider "cutting edge" was crap by virtue, but what changed my mind, against my own will, was the simple reality of it: I have personally seen so many over 300k engines of this engine family, that have been abused, used for towing, not maintained well, and run on dino oil with extended OCIs. Plenty over 400k and 500k, and a few million mile motors. Then there's the extensive and economical selection of aftermarket or stock replacement parts available for these engines (as with many popular American v8s, but especially so in the case of the 350, as it was the most widely used and popular engine of all time, period, in terms of years of production run, and number of new vehicles it was installed in), the ease of maintenance on it, the lack of any major problems with it, and again, its durability. The 350 Chevrolet engine will run on 6psi of idle oil pressure, and not be hurt. Sure, it's a derivative of, and very similar to, an "old design", but so is the wheel, and I don't see a lot of folks complaining about either. When something is good, and it works, simple or not, "large and fuel hungry" or not, it works. And some people have a deep intellectual need to over analyze things, and only pay respect to those things made which appeal to their over-analytical minds, things which are by nature complicated and high-tech, and therefore must be good, must be an improvement in every way. In many cases, if not most, technology, especially when used properly is a good thing. And even the 350 benefited from the addition of various technologies to it over the years, updating it to requirements of the time in which it was being used. But, as with many things in life, and I use the 350 as an example, a timeless design can be made if it's done well at the onset, and that was achieved in this case. In addition, it is pertinent and worth noting that, sometimes the genius is in the simplicity.

    And don't forget the cultural and resource differences that allow us to produce these larger engines that use more fuel, and require more iron to manufacture. In other countries, this is not so.

    I could go on all night about the many reasons why their logic in those arguments are flawed, but again, I am freaking tired. Between the few conversations we've had about it, I've probably expressed 60 percent of it, although not as succinctly as I would have liked. In any case, I fought giving these or any American engines any personal praise for many years, I was brainwashed into thinking that only engines produced from other cultures and other technologies as it were, could possibly be any good. And to be fair, there are certainly many engines that fit those descriptions that deserve accolades, anyone would be a fool to deny that. But equally, if one goes into the research on these engines with an open mind, and opens their eyes to the facts, and examples that are certainly everywhere, one can't help but come to the conclusion that it is a worthy engine, that served the purposes for which it was designed and the duties asked of it, very well, and better than some folks like this give it credit for. There are very large groups of people who already know the great qualities of these engines, many of which feel that way because they have owned them and have experienced them first hand. Myself included. Again, it is very worth noting that my Pro-American sentiments are not what drove me to conclude that the Chevrolet 350 engine was and is a great motor - if anything, the reverse may be more true.

    If one's taste leads them to like only engines that are, if only in a minor way, exotic because they are imported, then there is almost no way to change their mind, and whatever facts you present to them will only be twisted to mean something else, and irrelevant discussions will take place disguised as knowledge or intellectualism. There are people who will never love anything that is considered almost simpleton, very popular, "old fashioned", American (in some cases), or "not cutting edge". And they will always seek out other new things to love, and that's ok. But for those of us who are willing to like an engine or appreciate its qualities for what they are rather than a "status", or "to fill a need for importance", we can see the truth about any given product without those blinders on.

    These people have the right to their opinion, and should be thankful they live in a country where we have choices of what we buy. I choose to use mine for the productive good of my country whenever possible, and it just so happens in this case that I'm proud to have accidentally, after resisting it based on social status for so long, grown to like an engine made here in the U.S. My political and social views, however, do not make the 350 a good engine. What does make it a good engine is that it has been so durable, has great low end torque, more available parts at more places than any other engine out there, economical operation, general smoothness, ease of maintenance, extensive knowledge by others in the automotive community with regards to its maintenance and troubleshooting (look no further than your street, it's highly probable that one of your neighbors has owned one or does, and would lend a hand or advice, or even leftover parts...or put an ad on Craigslist: "looking for xxxx part for a 350" and see how many responses you get locally)...the list of reasons to love the engine goes on and on, I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to someone who will never get it (at club wrx)
    -From a wiser, older friend of mine regarding our discussion
    Last edited by Wrinklechops; 09-15-2009 at 12:55 PM.
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    Registered User John M's Avatar
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    Boy, where to start with that pearl of wisdom. First of all, he's right except for one thing -- nobody here ever said American v8's were bad. That's an incorrect assumption based on the fact that this is a WRX message board.

    What we did say is that non-American v8's can be GOOD. We don't think an imported engine is automatically exotic. All of this started when it was said that imported v8's can't make the muscle American v8's do. Then we simply listed some that do just that. Somehow that turned us into American-350-hating cavemen.

    I own more than one car. It doesn't mean I can't like other engines even if they happen to be imported. My truck is a Dodge Ram and I happen to love the Hemi. My previous truck was a 92 GMC with a TBI 350 and it was great at 15+ years old, and of course I didn't leave it stock either.
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    Administrator RayfieldsWRX's Avatar
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    This is a little like arguments I used to have with the wife...

    "Dear, I'm sorry for that comment...well...except that...I..never actually..said...that."
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  11. #70
    Wrinklechops
    Quote Originally Posted by RayfieldsWRX View Post
    This is a little like arguments I used to have with the wife...

    "Dear, I'm sorry for that comment...well...except that...I..never actually..said...that."
    Sometimes it's what we don't say
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  12. #71
    Wrinklechops
    Quote Originally Posted by John M View Post
    Boy, where to start with that pearl of wisdom. First of all, he's right except for one thing -- nobody here ever said American v8's were bad. That's an incorrect assumption based on the fact that this is a WRX message board.

    What we did say is that non-American v8's can be GOOD. We don't think an imported engine is automatically exotic. All of this started when it was said that imported v8's can't make the muscle American v8's do. Then we simply listed some that do just that. Somehow that turned us into American-350-hating cavemen.

    I own more than one car. It doesn't mean I can't like other engines even if they happen to be imported. My truck is a Dodge Ram and I happen to love the Hemi. My previous truck was a 92 GMC with a TBI 350 and it was great at 15+ years old, and of course I didn't leave it stock either.
    I understand, I just didn't hear any positive reinforcement if you will regarding the muscle V8s we churn out. I never meant to label anyone as a 350 Chevy hating caveman lol. Just discussion. Glad to see you have good taste in vehicles and don't just stick to one manufacturer.

    I'll leave you with this: how many of the non-American V8s are going to last to 300,000 miles or more even if they're not abused like many truck V8s for example though? Chevrolet makes some pretty darn strong and long lasting V8s.
    Last edited by Wrinklechops; 09-15-2009 at 07:15 PM.
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  13. #72
    Admiral Ackbar the 1st mycologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrinklechops View Post
    I understand, I just didn't hear any positive reinforcement if you will regarding the muscle V8s we churn out. I never meant to label anyone as a 350 Chevy hating caveman lol. Just discussion. Glad to see you have good taste in vehicles and don't just stick to one manufacturer.

    I'll leave you with this: how many of the non-American V8s are going to last to 300,000 miles or more even if they're not abused like many truck V8s for example though? Chevrolet makes some pretty darn strong and long lasting V8s.
    I must say I don't see where that long sentiment came from based on this thread - it was a bunch of presumptions about us that really are off base.

    First car I drove was a Buick Estate Wagon (1976) with a 455. You could raise horses in it but the motor was not out-matched. It ran out of oil once and the engine died. We added some oil and it fired right up. My parents also had a Monte Carlo with a 350 that I had a lot of fun in in high school. My friend built up a gran torino with a 427. My brother actually had a '66 tempest with a six pack for a bit. I later owned a Buick Skylark convertible with a 350 myself. That was an awesome car and I'd have another in a minute. Too bad it rusted out.

    The ironic thing is I am guessing you may not have owned or driven an American V8 regularly. You have a Japanese car and are looking to replace it with another non-American turbo 4-banger. Whereas, SD is pining after a big old American car with a V8 and has discussed it often and even posted pics of a project or potential project Olds recently IIRC.
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    It's nice that you went out and found an expert to help your failing cause.

    No one can comment if some of these new "exotic" (cause their from japan) V8's will last 300k miles or not....cause they havent been around long enough.

    Again...you keep jumping your arguement this all started cause you said no one could build a v8 as powerful and as good as an American company. Then you leaped over to no one can build a truck as good as an American company. Then you went onto to say that the American made 350SB is iconic and better then many current motors. Now you proclaim that while the other countries motors can on paper make just as much power none of them are going to last 300k miles but they havent been around long enough to verify that.


    With that being said my first true love in the car world is Ford's Mustang. The 302 in my book is a pretty well designed block and it's reputation and making and maintaining awesome street level performance is highly documented.

    I'm not a "ricer" fanboi. I also dont hate everything I dont understand.
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  15. #74
    Admiral Ackbar the 1st mycologist's Avatar
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    Mercedes 350sl motors have a proven track record into the 400,000 mile range.
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  16. #75
    He simply abides. SD_GR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mycologist View Post
    The ironic thing is I am guessing you may not have owned or driven an American V8 regularly. You have a Japanese car and are looking to replace it with another non-American turbo 4-banger. Whereas, SD is pining after a big old American car with a V8 and has discussed it often and even posted pics of a project or potential project Olds recently IIRC.
    I admit this is true. I love h u g e American cars. It's something that's just grown on me from watching TV as a little boy (Hawaii 5-0, Kojak, Canon, and so on - I liked the huge 4 door stuff but disliked the sporty car on Rockford files, a bit weird for a little kid I suppose). I also love the 1972 Plymouth Fury III, since I am a dedicated fan of The Big Lebowski. I'd love to have one of those in green with brown rust colourations, a Credence tape in the deck, and a brown leather bag with my laundry in it.

    So I love the old big cars... but I still don't see anything "special" about their motors. They were large, they used a lot of fuel and they made a lot of torque. Some were light, and these might have been useful in a roadster, say, but the low-revving, almost "lumbering" feel to them just made them seem a bit odd IMO. Oddly enough, as much as I like big 4-door US V8 cars, I also prefer stuff like the AC Ace and the Sunbeam Alpine (almost inexplicably I suppose) to their V8-powered chassis mates.

    Oh, and I like the Genesis 4-door better than the coupe version, the coupe still seems a little busy, almost Bangled I'd say, and it reminds me a bit of a cross between a 90s Supra and a Hyundai S-coupe.

    EDIT: Mycologist, I'm flattered you remembered! Here's my favourite import:http://www.clubwrx.net/forums/2493318-post5281.html
    Last edited by SD_GR; 09-15-2009 at 09:42 PM.
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