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This is a discussion on 05 STI vs WS6 TA within the Comparison: WRX vs World forums, part of the Community - Meet other Enthusiasts category; Originally Posted by lundholm08 For acceleration from 0 to an arbitrary speed, the AWD car will most likely win because ...

  1. #76
    Registered User 2004NeonSRT4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lundholm08 View Post
    For acceleration from 0 to an arbitrary speed, the AWD car will most likely win because it has a better traction availability (less traction demand on each wheel means that the power is spread more evenly, so slippage and loss of traction is less likely). As soon as you get out of a limited traction situation, the car with the least transmission loss will win.
    bolded for false.
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  3. #77
    Boba Fett BrianH's Avatar
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    I would expect that with everything else being the same, that would be the case.

  4. #78
    Registered User Herknav's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lundholm08 View Post
    But man that Mustang could fly... what do they have like 360hp+?
    Depends on the year... the Termi's were rated at 390 at the shaft, but they take light mods very very well and can turn into beasts on the stock block.

    The previous few years were NA 4V and made something like 315 to the shaft...

    The GT 500 is suppsedly 500 (duh?) to the shaft...

    HP is subjective anyway...
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  5. #79
    Wrinklechops
    Quote Originally Posted by Herknav View Post
    Depends on the year... the Termi's were rated at 390 at the shaft, but they take light mods very very well and can turn into beasts on the stock block.

    The previous few years were NA 4V and made something like 315 to the shaft...

    The GT 500 is suppsedly 500 (duh?) to the shaft...

    HP is subjective anyway...
    I would like to, once in my lifetime, feel the massive power from a good 'ol American muscle car, just from a dead stop in a straight line. I know they're not much good beyond that (corners, etc), but it'd still be fun.

  6. #80
    Moderator YBNormal07's Avatar
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    The logic is as follows:

    Premise: Same weight, same HP, equal drivers, rwd vs awd. Which will win?

    Real world solution:
    Track with less than a half-mile straight--AWD (Subaru, Nissan, Audi...pick your poison).
    Track with longer than a half mile straight--RWD may pull past AWD in straight.

    End Result: Depends on where the finish line is.

    If it is anywhere near a corner exit, AWD.
    If it is near the end of a long straight, RWD has a good chance.

    A comparison of an E45 M3 against an STi is a good case example. Similar weight, but the M3 does entertain a 30 or so HP advantage, plus a higher top end, so not sure how well this will go over.

    If the driver of the AWD vehicle is a defensive driver, AWD will win every time, as once they pull ahead out of a corner (where their higher exit speeds alwasy dominate) he/she will block the RWD.

    Multiply this scenario by a factor of xxx if the race begins from a standing stop.

    FYI...I've raced E46 M3s a few times, with more than 4 events being driven by an instructor who owned the M3. Times were nearly equal, but in heads up competition, I took him everytime as I was able to out accelerate him out of the first corner, and he never had the oomph to get past me after that. Rolling start did nothing to change this (from around 10 mph).

    Now...add in the Mother Nature factor...and multiply the advantage of AWD by another xxxx.

    ps...I never did see any refutation of the banning of AWD from various high level tarmac motorsports. This is fact. I wonder why???

    Seriously, it's no big deal. I like RWD for aspects that AWD can't provide without major speed and a huge error multiplication factor, such as major tail hanging and the ability to finese the car with the throttle (better at least).

    If I was asked which would I prefer in a race, it would be AWD no question. If I knew of no other factors about the race, and that was my only choice (AWD or RWD), AWD would be the answer.
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  7. #81
    Registered User 2004NeonSRT4's Avatar
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    in real world case i would see the short 6spd gearing of a sti hurting it's self over a e46 m3 which is geared better for plus 100 speeds. i do agree there. but ever saying the awd drive train hinders it's performance more as the speeds get higher is silly. parasitic drive train it lose is the same any speed. the only thing changing is gear ratios and increased aerodynamic drag. and a drop if hp is the engine/turbo setup is getting hot, causing heat soak.
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  8. #82
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  9. #83
    Wrinklechops
    Quote Originally Posted by YBNormal07 View Post
    The logic is as follows:

    Premise: Same weight, same HP, equal drivers, rwd vs awd. Which will win?

    Real world solution:
    Track with less than a half-mile straight--AWD (Subaru, Nissan, Audi...pick your poison).
    Track with longer than a half mile straight--RWD may pull past AWD in straight.

    End Result: Depends on where the finish line is.

    If it is anywhere near a corner exit, AWD.
    If it is near the end of a long straight, RWD has a good chance.

    A comparison of an E45 M3 against an STi is a good case example. Similar weight, but the M3 does entertain a 30 or so HP advantage, plus a higher top end, so not sure how well this will go over.

    If the driver of the AWD vehicle is a defensive driver, AWD will win every time, as once they pull ahead out of a corner (where their higher exit speeds alwasy dominate) he/she will block the RWD.

    Multiply this scenario by a factor of xxx if the race begins from a standing stop.

    FYI...I've raced E46 M3s a few times, with more than 4 events being driven by an instructor who owned the M3. Times were nearly equal, but in heads up competition, I took him everytime as I was able to out accelerate him out of the first corner, and he never had the oomph to get past me after that. Rolling start did nothing to change this (from around 10 mph).

    Now...add in the Mother Nature factor...and multiply the advantage of AWD by another xxxx.

    ps...I never did see any refutation of the banning of AWD from various high level tarmac motorsports. This is fact. I wonder why???

    Seriously, it's no big deal. I like RWD for aspects that AWD can't provide without major speed and a huge error multiplication factor, such as major tail hanging and the ability to finese the car with the throttle (better at least).

    If I was asked which would I prefer in a race, it would be AWD no question. If I knew of no other factors about the race, and that was my only choice (AWD or RWD), AWD would be the answer.
    You're right about many things. Just thought I'd chime in about the F1 ban thing...

    Porsche tried racing the 959 in Le Mans, aka the 961. It was never competitive and so was abandoned.

    F1 tried AWD like back in the 60's I believe. It was the Ferguson P99, and it crashed on the 2nd lap. They tried again and again, but it sucked.

    Take this and extend to the 70s. Notably, Jackie Stewart tried but could not find it in his heart to stick with his AWD car and chose to drive his RWD car instead. Shortly after realizing that Stewart was owning them, Chapman (Lotus) abandoned their AWD car.

    Also the ban had nothing to do with AWD, but with the 6 wheel cars.

    March and Williams each built cars with an identical 6-wheeled layout, but neither car was ever raced in F1. In both cases it was found that the cars were about the same as normal cars in terms of speed since the extra traction was negated by the added rolling resistance, although the March 2-4-0 was later to have some success in hillclimbs.

    AWD cars got owned in F1 over and over (until Nissan and Audi showed up).

    From Wikipedia:

    Bugatti created a total of three four-wheel drive racers, the Type 53, in 1932, but the cars were notorious for having poor handling.

    Ferguson Research Ltd. built the front-engine P99 Formula One car that actually won a non-WC race with Stirling Moss in 1961. In 1969, Team Lotus raced cars in F1, and the Indy 500, that had both turbine engines and 4WD, as well as the 4WD-Lotus 63 that had the standard Cosworth engine. Matra also raced a similar MS84, and McLaren entered their M9A in the British Grand Prix, while engine manufacturers Cosworth produced their own version which was tested but never raced. All these F1 cars were considered inferior to their RWD counterparts, as the advent of aerodynamic downforce meant that adequate traction could be obtained in a lighter and more mechanically efficient manner, and the idea was discontinued, even though Lotus tried repeatedly.
    But, obviously technology improved and AWD got better and Wiki had this to say about the F1 ban that Audi caused:

    Audi's dominance in the Trans-Am Series in 1988 was equally controversial as it led to a weight penalty mid season and to a rule revision banning all-AWD cars, its dominance in supertouring eventually led to a FIA ban on AWD system in 1998.
    All that said, I guess I have learned a lot about AWD and RWD through our discussion, and I thank you all for your input. I guess I've come to this conclusion sort of:

    AWD can make a mediocre driver good, while RWD, if utilized properly by race-drivers can be powerful and have a slight edge.

    So, I'll take AWD cuz it gives me more confidence and control, and I live in CO where nasty weather happens, and I need my AWD for a daily driver. If I was rich, I'd probably have both. AWD for daily use, and a good RWD power car for fun at the track, yea?

  10. #84
    Registered User JUSTINSNUTSWINGER's Avatar
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    Have you tried to autocross yet ? Might change your mind about what is a better drivetrain alltogether.... RWD offers nada compared to AWD..

    Although Miata's take the cake on RWD in auto-x.
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  11. #85
    Wrinklechops
    Quote Originally Posted by pzr2874 View Post
    Have you tried to autocross yet ? Might change your mind about what is a better drivetrain alltogether.... RWD offers nada compared to AWD..

    Although Miata's take the cake on RWD in auto-x.
    You're right I'm sure it would. But I don't necessarily credit all that to AWD. Ideally I'd actually like to become proficient with RWD, and then AWD. That way, if AWD is better then I will appreciate it much more. To me, it's like...your first car when you're 16 being an STi or something, where do you go from there? If you set the standard so high, sometimes it's hard to exceed it. Hell, I'd have loved an STi for my first car, but I had to go through about 5 cars before I could afford my WRX on my own. I appreciate it much more now.

  12. #86
    Registered User LilJohn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lundholm08 View Post
    Your thinking is somewhat flawed my friend. While all those cars are indeed great cars and have AWD, you are actually LOSING power when you allocate it to all 4 wheels instead of just 2. You have more drivetrain power loss.

    In addition to loss in the drivetrain, the transmission components for an AWD car are more numerous and thus will also need to be accelerated (I don't know how much this actually matters in the long run, but the engine is having to spin up additional shafts, gears, and other components. Even if the power is provided hydraulically, there will be friction loss in the hydraulic power system). All the rotational mass of these components can have the same effect as trying to run with ankle weights. Sure, you can do it, but you can't move your legs as fast because of the additional momentum.
    how does drive train loss make a difference when you not able to get all your power to the ground? sure it helps on straight runs, but the added traction you get in the launch "usually" out weighs it. besides how can an extra 5% HP in a RWD setup help when your turning and don't have traction to be at WOT anyways? Thats what the whole argument is about is that AWD is just better for handling cornering and turns.

    also i like how you like to use AWD cars designed back in the 60's 70's that were probably running viscous Diff's if any LSD at all, before modern AWD technologies like Active Center Diff's (like the DCCD found in the STi), Active Yaw Control, or even something as trivial as launch control.

    also whats with the giant font your using?
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  13. #87
    Wrinklechops
    You obviously didn't see what I said about how "technology has advanced" and how Audi and Nissan kicked major ass with their AWD?

    I'm getting so sick of this. I'm not against AWD, I think it's great. That's why I have a WRX for crying out loud. But I think a skilled driver can do very well in a RWD car, and I think a lot of us amateur-race drivers (no offense to any hardcore guys in here) think we're better drivers in AWD cars...

    I was talking about the 60's and 70's cars with AWD because I was giving a brief history of what led up to the ban on AWD in the F1 series (which a moderator asked me about). You said this argument is about going around corners... need I again refer to the top 4 spots on the Top Gear track (just as an example) that are held by RWD cars? And until recently (Nissan GT-R, Bugatti Veyron, Lambo) the top of the list was dominated by RWD vehicles.

    The large font was to illustrate a point. I'm sorry you still don't understand. I think we can all agree both AWD and RWD have their advantages.

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