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This is a discussion on srt4 caliber the new fwd king? within the Comparison: WRX vs World forums, part of the Community - Meet other Enthusiasts category; Originally Posted by DTR rex There is no doubt that the MS3 is superior to the WRX from a performance ...

  1. #91
    Registered User CaRboNaDo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DTR rex View Post
    There is no doubt that the MS3 is superior to the WRX from a performance standpoint DISPITE the fwd. FWD cars can handle quite well, but from a point of mere physics and logic it is just not the best choice for a performance car.
    It would seem to me that the MS3 has proven successful enough to bust this theory a new one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RayfieldsWRX View Post
    Hi, my name is Ray, and I am a Nubtastic AWD Yuppie.
    Fascinating, I too am Ray, and I too am a Nubtastic AWD Yuppie. We should get together and compare notes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RealDealTarheel View Post
    Fascinating, I too am Ray, and I too am a Nubtastic AWD Yuppie. We should get together and compare notes.
    Some downsides

    added cost
    less fuel efficient
    increased maintenance cost
    added weight
    cuts breaking performance

    More rotational mass

    AWD yuppies wouldnt see the sun if it blinded them

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    Registered User DTR rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by low430 View Post
    Some downsides

    added cost
    less fuel efficient
    increased maintenance cost
    added weight
    cuts breaking performance

    More rotational mass

    AWD yuppies wouldnt see the sun if it blinded them
    That is all WAY WAY WAY to relative to specifics and is vastly generalizing a topic.

    While each point does carry weight, what is it retrospective to? The STI/EVO is AWD and is one of the best performance for the dollar cars in the market. Less fuel efficient than what? If it was FWD? Well of course, but then it wouldn't be half the car it is. It gets MPG's in accordance to if not better than other cars that put down similar numbers. Increased maintenance? I would like to see proof that an AWD system increases the maintenance necessary for any single automobile. The impreza is regularly rated one of the most reliable cars in the market. As for added weight, I will give you that. It does add weight, and it does increase drivetrain loss.. but you gotta take a little to get a little. Cuts down on braking performance? WTF are you talking about? Again, totally relative, and just for the hell of it i'll ask you to look up STI braking times (which are on par or better than $100,000 + RWD super cars). And lastly, rotational mass......... I won't even answer this because it just becomes too complicated and at 2:45am I don't feel like educating you on it.


    Ask anyone here.... I am the LAST person to be bias towards a wrx, in fact I am often the devils advocate for other cars around these parts.
    However, your statements are just blind generalizations which lack logical relative correlation to specific subjects. It's not a very convincing argument and actually forces yourself to run in circles.

    AWD has its pro's and con's. We here feel the pro's outweigh the con's for the most part, but just the same recognize that pointing out the faults of AWD (however poorly organized your "fault list" is) does nothing to deter the point.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DTR rex View Post
    That is all WAY WAY WAY to relative to specifics and is vastly generalizing a topic.

    While each point does carry weight, what is it retrospective to? The STI/EVO is AWD and is one of the best performance for the dollar cars in the market. Less fuel efficient than what? If it was FWD? Well of course, but then it wouldn't be half the car it is. It gets MPG's in accordance to if not better than other cars that put down similar numbers. Increased maintenance? I would like to see proof that an AWD system increases the maintenance necessary for any single automobile. The impreza is regularly rated one of the most reliable cars in the market. As for added weight, I will give you that. It does add weight, and it does increase drivetrain loss.. but you gotta take a little to get a little. Cuts down on braking performance? WTF are you talking about? Again, totally relative, and just for the hell of it i'll ask you to look up STI braking times (which are on par or better than $100,000 + RWD super cars). And lastly, rotational mass......... I won't even answer this because it just becomes too complicated and at 2:45am I don't feel like educating you on it.


    Ask anyone here.... I am the LAST person to be bias towards a wrx, in fact I am often the devils advocate for other cars around these parts.
    However, your statements are just blind generalizations which lack logical relative correlation to specific subjects. It's not a very convincing argument and actually forces yourself to run in circles.

    AWD has its pro's and con's. We here feel the pro's outweigh the con's for the most part, but just the same recognize that pointing out the faults of AWD (however poorly organized your "fault list" is) does nothing to deter the point.
    Reduced braking due to added rotational mass working against the braking system along with the extra weight of the transfer casses and drive system .

    Increased maintenance as there are 3 differentials compared to 2 on a FWD or RWD and instead of 2 CV axles there are 4.
    Also do you see all these, I broke my tranny threads?
    some may say that this is another maintenance problem some may say people just drive wrong.

    its just general info.
    Personally I prefer AWD over FWD but Id take RWD for a track only car.
    My point was just to educate some people that FWD doesnt mean a car is slow and because you have AWD doesnt mean you will spank them.
    when I do get my next subaru which will be a globeye I will still show respect to integras and ****, Im not going to be one of those. My car has AWD so its better Priks

    Too many Ignorant priks acting like there cars are the **** kept me away from subarus and DSM's too long. I cant count how many times *******s have Told me. My car will smoke you, Im like okay whys that?
    Cuz I have all wheel drive, Blah blah blah, So Im like lets togue run then. Sure enough I smoked everyone of them, Cept for 1 kid had an 05 sti I took him in the corners but he beat me in the end
    Still Running a All stock GSR sitting on nothing but perfect negative camber from ITR springs and Kumho SPT's
    Now I drive a subaru I dont go around spouting how my AWD is superior, In fact Some downsides suck, Like I just blew a rear cv boot which wouldn't happen in a FWD, I also had a flat tire and I couldn't drive over 50 MPH according to the owners manual I can toast the center diff.
    I respect every drive train layout and while Im not a fan of Mazdas or Chevy cobalts, Im not gonna trash talk them on the internet with the illusion that my AWD somehow makes me superior.
    Ya I can launch off your face but I still have a pain in the ass time changing plugs.
    Boxer engines are not as easy to work on as Inline 4's
    Who knows how the clutch job I have to do is going to go.


    Make sense?

    People on this board Fail to respect other cars and fail to realize that AWD doesnt make you faster in the corners.
    Honestly
    XS WRX vs K20a Swapped EG
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hps4VHu8NII
    S2000 VS k20a Swapped EG
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMZrD...eature=related
    Modded Evo VS Supercharged RSX
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAOqS7ghl1w
    Or how about a Stock K20a In an EG beating an EVO?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k08rp...eature=related

    And Finally An 06 Modded STI beating the crap out of a civic from a dig then the civic winning from a roll
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUX28...eature=related
    Last edited by low430; 12-27-2007 at 01:41 AM.

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    Registered User RealDealTarheel's Avatar
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    Before low430 came to this forum I was completely in the dark about all manner of drivetrain options. Thankfully though, low430 recognized that I, nay the whole Club, was totally a FWD hater, and spent many waking hours contemplating other peoples choice in vehicle and drivetrain. He then proceeded to show me things that never occured to me, and things that made me weep. ZOMG, my AWD car is totally deficient, and AWD is the most illogical choice of drive train set up ever!!! I feel like such a fool, what with all that extra weight and all that extra rotating mass I have to contend with, and I now know why my STi just never seemed to stop as well as my 04 Civic did. I'm going to my nearest Honda dealer and rectifying my erroneous ways. I repent my AWD fanboy ways.

    Seriously, I don't need lectures from random ass holes on the internet, I don't care what anyone else told you, or who else you may have raced. To come to a forum dedicated to an AWD platform and preaching about the deficiencies of said platform is borderline retarded and is definitely a **** move. If you would like to have a Honda against the world hug fest, please go to a Vtak forum, if you take offense to people who prefer AWD over FWD you are in the wrong place. Grow up scooter, not everyone is 18 and needs lecturing.
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    Registered User tom'sti's Avatar
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    My car is AWD?
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  9. #98
    Registered User RealDealTarheel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tom'sti View Post
    My car is AWD?
    hah hah, this whole thing started because YOU just couldn't get excited about a high hp FWD car, shame on you!!!

    I agree with your original assesment though, they may be fast, and easily modded(just like the original Teh Fastar) but I personally would never buy one. FWD drive just doesn't blow my hair back anymore, I've clawed my way to the top, and I'm happy with my spot.
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    Administrator RayfieldsWRX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by low430 View Post
    Some downsides
    added cost
    less fuel efficient
    increased maintenance cost
    added weight
    cuts breaking performance

    More rotational mass

    AWD yuppies wouldnt see the sun if it blinded them
    Actually, we're just having fun with you at this point, son. But then it's hard to embrace fun when you have a 4000 pound chip on your shoulder.

    Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go check out my breaks.
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  11. #100
    Administrator RayfieldsWRX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RealDealTarheel View Post
    I agree with your original assesment though, they may be fast, and easily modded(just like the original Teh Fastar) but I personally would never buy one. FWD drive just doesn't blow my hair back anymore, I've clawed my way to the top, and I'm happy with my spot.
    FWD is perfectly fine, even preferred, for certain circumstances/drivers. But not for sportscars and sports sedans. There's a reason that Honda broke their pattern and went RWD with the S2000.
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  12. #101
    Registered User RealDealTarheel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RayfieldsWRX View Post
    FWD is perfectly fine, even preferred, for certain circumstances/drivers. But not for sportscars and sports sedans. There's a reason that Honda broke their pattern and went RWD with the S2000.
    I agree, FWD has it's uses. However after owning a FWD sport compact at moderate power levels I'm convinced it's not for me. I personally enjoy putting my right foot down and not dealing with squeeling tires and teeth shattering wheel hop. AWD works best for me at this point in life, and even for the wife it seems to be the superior choice(read 2010 Forrestor).
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    Front wheel drive has one spot in the automotive world. And that's cheap daily driving in a climate where snow isnt an issue.

    This is routinely why the AWD/RWD drive cars get HUGE weight penatliy's in just about every form of road racing.


    You bring up the fact that trannys break for added maintance? That's a design flaw that Subaru hasnt fixed. The designed flaw is that they didnt anticpate people beating the living crap out of the tranny with increased HP/Torque.

    And now the brakes on my STI are garbarge? I'd be more then willing (in someone elses STI as I dont abuse mine) to do 5-6 0-100-0 sprints. After the 2nd one I'd love for you to tell me how the brakes on the STI is worst then a stock GSR setup.

    Once again...the only logical place for a FWD setup is in a decently warm climate when someone isnt looking for a performance vehicle.
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    Administrator Trainrex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by low430 View Post
    Reduced braking due to added rotational mass working against the braking system along with the extra weight of the transfer casses and drive system . Subaru's AWD system doesn't have a transfer case. Actually, Subaru's transmissions aren't much heavier than conventional RWD transmissions. If you looked at the Subaru's system, it's basically a RWD setup with 2 more diffs and two front axles. Maybe 100lbs if you're lucky.

    Increased maintenance as there are 3 differentials compared to 2 on a FWD or RWD and instead of 2 CV axles there are 4. You really need to do some homework. RWD and FWD setups have one diff versus three in the Subaru setup. The Subaru setup is a conventionally mounted engine with 2 diffs in the trans and one in the rear. A transverse mounted engine AWD setup (EVO, DSM) has one diff in the trans, a transfer case, and one diff in the rear. You are correct that the addition of any moving parts will decrease reliability, but rear CV axles very rarely have issues do to their limited range of movement.
    Also do you see all these, I broke my tranny threads?
    some may say that this is another maintenance problem some may say people just drive wrong.
    Unfortunately, aside from the STi trans, Subaru transmissions are inherently weak. That is a Subaru trait, not an AWD trait.
    its just general info.
    Personally I prefer AWD over FWD but Id take RWD for a track only car.
    My point was just to educate some people that FWD doesnt mean a car is slow and because you have AWD doesnt mean you will spank them.
    when I do get my next subaru which will be a globeye I will still show respect to integras and ****, Im not going to be one of those. My car has AWD so its better Priks
    So far I haven't seen any of those "Priks" in this thread except a FWD "Prik". Most of the people here prefer traction an a well rounded performance car. A FWD car with an abundant amount of horsepower is very limited in it's abilities. Once that much power is added, they become strictly straight line drag cars, or "frumaroll" cars. A 500whp AWD or RWD car will spank a 500whp FWD car any day of the week in any contest. FWD is a very poor platform for motorsports. If equal mods are added to all three platforms, the FWD will always come in last. It's just a fact.

    Too many Ignorant priks acting like there cars are the **** kept me away from subarus and DSM's too long. I cant count how many times *******s have Told me. My car will smoke you, Im like okay whys that?
    Cuz I have all wheel drive, Blah blah blah, So Im like lets togue run then. Sure enough I smoked everyone of them, Cept for 1 kid had an 05 sti I took him in the corners but he beat me in the end
    Still Running a All stock GSR sitting on nothing but perfect negative camber from ITR springs and Kumho SPT's I couldn't make much sense out of that. Have you considered typing in adult English to prove your point?
    Now I drive a subaru I dont go around spouting how my AWD is superior, In fact Some downsides suck, Like I just blew a rear cv boot which wouldn't happen in a FWD, Umm...FWD vehicles "blow" CV boots all the time. I also had a flat tire and I couldn't drive over 50 MPH All cars have a 50mph limit when driving on a donut spare. according to the owners manual I can toast the center diff. Only if you drive a long distance on a wheel that is a different circumference than the other three.
    I respect every drive train layout and while Im not a fan of Mazdas or Chevy cobalts, Im not gonna trash talk them on the internet with the illusion that my AWD somehow makes me superior.
    Ya I can launch off your face but I still have a pain in the ass time changing plugs. AWD has nothing to do with plugs. Now you're grasping at straws.
    Boxer engines are not as easy to work on as Inline 4's Agreed, but once again what does that have to do with AWD? EVO's and DSM's are AWD with an inline engine.
    Who knows how the clutch job I have to do is going to go. Much easier than your typical FWD setup. I've changed enough clutches on vehicles to tell you this.


    Make sense? Not yet

    People on this board Fail to respect other cars and fail to realize that AWD doesnt make you faster in the corners.
    Honestly
    XS WRX vs K20a Swapped EG
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hps4VHu8NII
    S2000 VS k20a Swapped EG
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMZrD...eature=related
    Modded Evo VS Supercharged RSX
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAOqS7ghl1w
    Or how about a Stock K20a In an EG beating an EVO?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k08rp...eature=related

    And Finally An 06 Modded STI beating the crap out of a civic from a dig then the civic winning from a roll
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUX28...eature=related
    Can you take a picture of the posters on your bedroom walls for us please?
    Last edited by Trainrex; 12-27-2007 at 07:10 AM.

  15. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by low430 View Post
    Some downsides

    added cost
    less fuel efficient
    increased maintenance cost
    added weight
    cuts breaking performance

    More rotational mass

    AWD yuppies wouldnt see the sun if it blinded them
    Don't forget all that crappy fun in the snow and dirt.


    Also, a lot of people from this forum came from the Honda camp. We drove FWD cars. We just don't like them.

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    Boba Fett BrianH's Avatar
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    this is almost as good as the 'omg, they telled me on the hondar forums dat turboes increases gas mileages'

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