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This is a discussion on 06 WRX vs. 06 Civic Si within the Comparison: WRX vs World forums, part of the Community - Meet other Enthusiasts category; Originally Posted by DTR rex technically he is catching up. Will he actually catch you and pass you because of ...

  1. #91
    Registered User 04wrx4keeps's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DTR rex
    technically he is catching up. Will he actually catch you and pass you because of his superior trap speed? Eventually, but at considerably higher speeds. Trap speeds are better indicators of who will win a highway or rolling race as opposed to a 1/4mile race.
    Did you ever get that magazine out of your car and see if it was the WRX or 2.5?
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  3. #92
    Registered User DTR rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 04wrx4keeps
    Did you ever get that magazine out of your car and see if it was the WRX or 2.5?
    yeah, but it have been in a different mag. This mag has an article on the civic Si but it doesn't say anything about a wrx/2.5rs. sorry.

    Although, judging from the test data on the Si and the suspension it is running I would not be suprised at all if it took out a wrx on a track
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  4. #93
    Registered User Pastapuck's Avatar
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    It is in the December issue of Automobile Magazine.

    One thing has been mistaken in this thread however: The Honda Civic Si (2006) is not faster.

    In fact, they awarded the 2006 WRX (out of the new GLI, Cobalt SS, and Civic Si) with the best acceleration award.

    This is the part that confused the staretr of this thread (as it does for me)

    "In an autocross, our two drivers - and old hand and a rookie - ran similar times from car to car. Quickest car was the Honda Civic Si."
    What they are actually saying is that the Civic Si retained the highest consistent speed throughout the autocross, however it did not finish fastest.

    Civic Si:
    Veteran - 42.1 MPH
    Rookie - 40.8 MPH

    Cobalt SS:
    Veteran: 41.1 MPH
    Rookie: 40.4 MPH

    Jetta GLI:
    Veteran: 40.9 MPH
    Rookie: 40.4 MPH

    Impreza WRX:
    Veteran: 40.9 MPH
    Rookie: 40.2 MPH

    0-60:
    Civic Si: 6.7
    Cobalt SS: 6.4
    Jetta GLI: 7.8
    Impreza WRX: 5.8

    1/4 Mile:
    Civic Si: 15.2 @ 95
    Cobalt SS: 14.9 @ 98
    Jetta GLI: 15.9 @ 92
    Impreza WRX: 14.6 @ 95

    I hope this clears things up!

  5. #94
    Registered User MagikMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DTR rex
    technically he is catching up. Will he actually catch you and pass you because of his superior trap speed? Eventually, but at considerably higher speeds. Trap speeds are better indicators of who will win a highway or rolling race as opposed to a 1/4mile race.
    How could you say he's catching up, when at 8.9 seconds he's doing 90, and I'd be doing 90 at 8.5 seconds. At 8.9 seconds I'd be doing like 92 or 93. He's never catching up. And to the quote about the launch, if he got that good traction, he wouldn't trap that high. The better the launch, the better the ET, but typically, you will always have a lower trap. Like the same car with a 2.0 60' and the same car with a 2.2 the 2.0 run will have a better et, but the 2.2 will have a better trap.
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  6. #95
    Registered User MagikMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 04wrx4keeps
    EDIT (I forgot this): Also, contrary to what it might seem like, your NOT going to gain that much more speed by 8.9 seconds, you will actually probably be going about 91-92. Think of it this way, in the first 1/8 mile you accelerated 87mph total over that whole 8.3 seconds, now in the 2nd 1/8th of a mile you accelerated about another 20mph in about 4.5 seconds (going by the 12.8 @ 112 in your sig), and in only 0.6 seconds your going to cover about 3-4mph of that 20...
    You can't do that equation like that, it's not a linear equation, it's parabolic. So you have to look at it from a parabolic stand point. From 86 - 112 the rate of acceleration is not constant. It's inversely proportional to the speed.

    Also from 86 - 112 there is a 3-4 shift which takes .2 seconds according to the magazines. from 86 to 99 there is no shift. So I'm going faster than 91 - 92. It's all in the numbers...
    Last edited by MagikMan; 11-17-2005 at 09:29 AM.
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  7. #96
    Registered User 04wrx4keeps's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagikMan
    How could you say he's catching up, when at 8.9 seconds he's doing 90, and I'd be doing 90 at 8.5 seconds. At 8.9 seconds I'd be doing like 92 or 93. He's never catching up. And to the quote about the launch, if he got that good traction, he wouldn't trap that high. The better the launch, the better the ET, but typically, you will always have a lower trap. Like the same car with a 2.0 60' and the same car with a 2.2 the 2.0 run will have a better et, but the 2.2 will have a better trap.

    The fact is that he IS gaining on you. No he wont have caught up to you by the 1/8 mile, but given more room to accelerate he will eventually catch you. And the trap speed is going to go down a much smaller amount than the ET does, for example I have 2 of my own timeslips sitting in front of me, I have one with a 1.81 60' time and one with a 1.94 60' time, on the 1.81 I pass the 1/8 mile in 8.3 @ 84 and then the 1/4 mile in 13.1@103.14, on the 1.94 i pass the 1/8 mile in 8.6 @ 83 and the 1/4 in 13.3 @ 103.04... The ET time changed alot (0.3sec is a pretty good amount) but trap speed didnt go down by much in either case.

    You can believe whatever you want and try to calculate it out, but you're even saying that its not a simple linear equation., which is true, and that you have to look at all the factors, which is also true, and then for your calculations all you are using is 2 figures, time and trap-speed. If you compared the ENTIRE timeslip and the only thing that was different was the ET and trap then you would be correct, but I can almost garuntee if you compared them that would not be the case.

    And besides, 1/8 mile is a VERY short race, the launch is going to have a huge effect on the actual time you run in the 1/8 mile. Just like I said in my post above, except I'll exagerate it a little more this time: if hes spinning for 1/2 the track, and then hooks up and and goes finally where as you only spun for 1/4 of the track before hooking up. He's had 1/2 the track to get from 15-20 to 90, and you've had 3/4 of the track to get from 5-10mph to 90 (and becuase of this you will also hit 15-20mph far before that 1/2 track point he got to it at), its going to take him much more TIME to get to 90 since for that first 1/2 of the track he was accelerating very slowly (and basically just running the clock up) compared to you, but once he was able to actually accelerate it took him much less DISTANCE (and time too actually) to get from 20-90 than it took you to get from 20-90. Once again, this is very exagerated, I know he wasnt probably spinning 1/2 the track, but it illustrates the point. You can believe whatever you want I'm not going to agrue it anymore, next time try going to a 1/4 mile track and racing him instead of a tinly little 1/8 mile, or even try racing on a straight and deserted highway or country road where you can open it up a little farther and see what happens, you'll probably be surprised if you dont beleive me...
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  8. #97
    Registered User MagikMan's Avatar
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    that's crazy.... it doesn't mean he was spinning, it could be the fact that he has ridiculous turbo lag, and isn't making much power. But if at 8.9 seconds he's doing 90 and I'm doing faster, he's not catching up with me... under any cirumstances.....

    the same scenario is true for my friend with a tt supra. He runs the quarter slower than me with the same trap... yet if we go from a roll, and we've gone from different roll speeds, I pull him. not by a whole lot, but from a 70 - 110 roll I get a car on him. It's frustrating having this conversation.... it's just a point that gets overlooked so soon.
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  9. #98
    Registered User 04wrx4keeps's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagikMan
    that's crazy.... it doesn't mean he was spinning, it could be the fact that he has ridiculous turbo lag, and isn't making much power. But if at 8.9 seconds he's doing 90 and I'm doing faster, he's not catching up with me... under any cirumstances.....

    the same scenario is true for my friend with a tt supra. He runs the quarter slower than me with the same trap... yet if we go from a roll, and we've gone from different roll speeds, I pull him. not by a whole lot, but from a 70 - 110 roll I get a car on him. It's frustrating having this conversation.... it's just a point that gets overlooked so soon.
    The thing that you are overlooking is that a drag-strip is not testing SPEED OVER A COURSE OF TIME, IT IS TESTING DISTANCE OVER A COURSE OF TIME....as in how long it takes you to go 1/8 of a mile not how long it takes you to get to 100, thats why you dont just get back a slip that has your trap-speed on it.

    whether hes spinning or suffering under lag or whatever, he is still WASTING TIME MOVING SLOWLY WHILE YOU ARE ACCELERATING AT FULL SPEED, lag or spinning makes the same difference, if its lag then once hes past 1st gear he's shifting into boost (or close to it) not back to idle every gear, so the lag no longer makes that same difference as it did at the start once he's rolling....

    What your saying doesnt get overlooked, its simply WRONG. If you are in the lane next to a slow car, lets say for example a stock civic that runs 10.0 through the 1/8 mile, and then you roll forward just enough so that the ET clock starts going and sit there for 2 seconds and then launch your car, he is going to run a 10.0 @ 55 or whatever and you are going to run a 10.3@90 (since you sat for 2 seconds with the clock going and then pulled off your 8.3 1/8), are you going to say that you werent catching up to him...becuase thats what you are trying to argue....
    Last edited by 04wrx4keeps; 11-17-2005 at 12:56 PM.
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  10. #99
    Registered User 04wrx4keeps's Avatar
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    Also, in your explenation of the Supra, unlike wheelspin, turbo lag will make a difference starting from a roll. Durring the 1/4 mile or 1/8 mile or whatever, that supra is going to go from 60-100 alot faster than it will if hes cruising and hits it at 60, since on the run from a stop his turbo is already spooled by 60mph and he doesnt have to wait for it to spool up.

    Since you both trap the same it doesnt surprise me at all that you pull on him from a rolling start, since the equal trap speed shows that once you are moving you are both putting about the same power down, with his turbo lag from a roll hes not going to put that amount of power down from the time he hits the gas like you will, so its almost like you get a little head-start while his turbo is spinning up and then once he gets spooled you will probably still pull a little bit because you got that head start....if he trapped alot higher than you in the supra once his turbo got spooled then he could pull back that lost ground (since hes putting down more power to weight if he traps higher) but since you trap the same he wont be able to...
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  11. #100
    Registered User racerWRX's Avatar
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    this is good !!!!
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  12. #101
    Registered User DTR rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pastapuck
    It is in the December issue of Automobile Magazine.

    One thing has been mistaken in this thread however: The Honda Civic Si (2006) is not faster.

    In fact, they awarded the 2006 WRX (out of the new GLI, Cobalt SS, and Civic Si) with the best acceleration award.

    This is the part that confused the staretr of this thread (as it does for me)



    What they are actually saying is that the Civic Si retained the highest consistent speed throughout the autocross, however it did not finish fastest.

    Civic Si:
    Veteran - 42.1 MPH
    Rookie - 40.8 MPH

    Cobalt SS:
    Veteran: 41.1 MPH
    Rookie: 40.4 MPH

    Jetta GLI:
    Veteran: 40.9 MPH
    Rookie: 40.4 MPH

    Impreza WRX:
    Veteran: 40.9 MPH
    Rookie: 40.2 MPH

    0-60:
    Civic Si: 6.7
    Cobalt SS: 6.4
    Jetta GLI: 7.8
    Impreza WRX: 5.8

    1/4 Mile:
    Civic Si: 15.2 @ 95
    Cobalt SS: 14.9 @ 98
    Jetta GLI: 15.9 @ 92
    Impreza WRX: 14.6 @ 95

    I hope this clears things up!

    I dont think the issue was the si being faster 0-60 or 1/4mile wise, but more-so the si being a better track car and getting better track times, better lateral G's, better slaloms, etc... which it seems to have accomplished. There is no doubt the wrx is faster in the 1/4mile or 0-60 but a highway race would be VERY close it seems and I think the Si handles better.
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  13. #102
    Moderator YBNormal07's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagikMan
    that's crazy.... it doesn't mean he was spinning, it could be the fact that he has ridiculous turbo lag, and isn't making much power. But if at 8.9 seconds he's doing 90 and I'm doing faster, he's not catching up with me... under any cirumstances.....

    the same scenario is true for my friend with a tt supra. He runs the quarter slower than me with the same trap... yet if we go from a roll, and we've gone from different roll speeds, I pull him. not by a whole lot, but from a 70 - 110 roll I get a car on him. It's frustrating having this conversation.... it's just a point that gets overlooked so soon.
    I think you keep overlooking the fact that it is time over distance, as was stated above. Look at it this way, you cross the line at a certain speed and time and keep going full throttle. The other guy does the same thing and plot your speeds and time across various intervals. I'll use nice whole numbers so it's clear

    1/4 mile
    You-10 sec @ 100 mph
    Him-12 sec @ 110 mph

    1/2 mile
    You- 15 sec @ 120
    Him-16 sec @ 135 mph

    3/4 mile
    You-20 sec @ 140
    Him-20 sec @ 160 MPH

    1 mile
    You 30 Sec @ 150 MPH
    Him 29 Sec @ 165 MPH

    These numbers are by no means rational. But it just shows that if someone is at a higher MPH than you over a certain distance, if you extrapolate it out, they SHOULD eventually pass you. This is by no means guaranteed as there are many factors that go into the original numbers such as launch capability, gear ratios, power curver, etc.

    If someone crosses the same point behind you at a faster speed, they are catching you. It's simple physics. The more time you add to the equation, the more likely it is that they will pass you. Take it to an extreme. If someone crosses the line 1 sec behind you but is traveling 50 MPH faster, don't you think they will catch you if you keep your foot in it? Of course they will. The same is true for someone going only 1 mph faster. If you do the math, they will pass you eventually. But thankfully, it is just math, and not reality.

    Now you see why so many prefer to race from a roll. It takes more of the driver out of the equation and (my belief) lets cars with less torque (and less driver skill) compete better against others.
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  14. #103
    Moderator Integra96's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DTR rex
    I dont think the issue was the si being faster 0-60 or 1/4mile wise, but more-so the si being a better track car and getting better track times, better lateral G's, better slaloms, etc... which it seems to have accomplished. There is no doubt the wrx is faster in the 1/4mile or 0-60 but a highway race would be VERY close it seems and I think the Si handles better.
    Where are you getting this information from? The Si was NOT the fastest to finish the autocross. And I still haven't seen Si lateral G's, slalom speeds, or anything else published.
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  15. #104
    Registered User SonicYellowWRX's Avatar
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    Wow, cant believe this is still going strong... I used to own a boosted Integra with mild suspension tuning and when I went to check out the WRX, the salesman took an onramp at way too fast speeds for the car and said "WOW, I love how this car handles!" while I was holding on to the "OH SHlT" handle for dear life!

    Just as I say they are slow cars, they are also not good handling cars... but dump some money in there and you have something nice. If you disagree with this statement, then I have a higher standard than you. The magazine says it clear and simple, higher speed on the course = faster. Try taking a tight onramp with the cars and you can see the difference in speeds... and the faster car equates to better handling. Not rocket science.

    And I could care less about drag racing... yea the WRX is still faster in the 1/4 mile but i don't live my life a 1/4 mile at a time. I like the fact that a car is built to handle from the factory. I like how honda didnt try to rip us off on this car like how Subaru raped me and other loyal buyers of the previous WRX's.
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  16. #105
    Registered User DTR rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Integra96
    Where are you getting this information from? The Si was NOT the fastest to finish the autocross. And I still haven't seen Si lateral G's, slalom speeds, or anything else published.
    Si not the fastest to finish the autocross?

    of the cars listed it holds the best time for both veteran and rookie drivers. Check out the new issue of road and track, they have lateral G's and slalom speeds on the Si.. both of which are better than a stock wrx.
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