stage2 wrx vs gti 1.8t - Page 3
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This is a discussion on stage2 wrx vs gti 1.8t within the Comparison: WRX vs World forums, part of the Community - Meet other Enthusiasts category; Originally Posted by wizzman Yeah that someone happens to be the people selling it. For the umpteenth time, lets see ...

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by wizzman
    Yeah that someone happens to be the people selling it. For the umpteenth time, lets see some REAL WORLD dynos of a K04 over 240 whp. I am not sure why you keep making the same argument over and over with the same freaking link. If this is such widespread knowledge and so easy to do please provide some other sources.

    And to YZ: You are missing the point, I am aware every company makes staged kits. But it just so happens APR is the biggest company out there for 1.8t engine management. If you don't believe me, show up to Waterfest in NJ this weekend. Ask ANYONE what a stage III is and they will tell you its APR's gt28r kit. Yes there are others, but like Cobb has grasped the term "stage 2" for the wrx, APR has "stage III" for the 1.8t.
    Why is it so hard for you to believe that a company got 296whp and 355ft/lbs tq off a K04 with race gas and a sprayer? They make about 240whp on pump, so add race gas and a sprayer and a proper tune and there you go, 300whp almost.

    And the company wouldn't be offering the kit if no one bought it. Sure it might not be popular and you might not see it on every other vw with a turbo upgrade, but I'm positive that there are people out there that are buying it.

    Ask your self this question: Are prunes a popular food? Not necessarily. You probably wouldn't buy them to serve at a trendy party and you probably wouldn't walk down the street chewing on prunes, but there are people out there that would.

    So why's that so hard to believe? It's almost like saying a wrx can't get 250whp from a stock turbo. Of course it can, with enough work and money put into the motor, you can get 250whp out of it...

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  3. #32
    Registered User wizzman's Avatar
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    I hear you can really feel prunes on the butt dyno.

  4. #33
    Registered User Aerocore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YZFWV
    Why is it so hard for you to believe that a company got 296whp and 355ft/lbs tq off a K04 with race gas and a sprayer? They make about 240whp on pump, so add race gas and a sprayer and a proper tune and there you go, 300whp almost.

    And the company wouldn't be offering the kit if no one bought it. Sure it might not be popular and you might not see it on every other vw with a turbo upgrade, but I'm positive that there are people out there that are buying it.

    Ask your self this question: Are prunes a popular food? Not necessarily. You probably wouldn't buy them to serve at a trendy party and you probably wouldn't walk down the street chewing on prunes, but there are people out there that would.

    So why's that so hard to believe? It's almost like saying a wrx can't get 250whp from a stock turbo. Of course it can, with enough work and money put into the motor, you can get 250whp out of it...
    Here's the problem I don't think you see. The only dyno we have of this setup is from the company building the setup. What you're pretty much saying is when AEM says you'll make 15hp off of their CAI, you're completely agreeing with that number. So far, from research I have done and from what I've read from others research is that getting anywhere near ~290whp from a K04 turbo is: A) Unheard of and B) Impossible(the flow characteristics make it impossible). Now, there is a possibility that they did pull this off on some Wednesday motor and the planets were aligned but real world, you won't see ~290whp from a K04.
    2003 VW GTI 1.8T - Bolt-on City!!!!
    1991 Acura NSX - Stock
    http://www.sportcompactracing.com/vb...=getimage&id=5

  5. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aerocore
    Here's the problem I don't think you see. The only dyno we have of this setup is from the company building the setup. What you're pretty much saying is when AEM says you'll make 15hp off of their CAI, you're completely agreeing with that number. So far, from research I have done and from what I've read from others research is that getting anywhere near ~290whp from a K04 turbo is: A) Unheard of and B) Impossible(the flow characteristics make it impossible). Now, there is a possibility that they did pull this off on some Wednesday motor and the planets were aligned but real world, you won't see ~290whp from a K04.
    240whp is average for a k04. Yes. On Pump gas....

    Add RACE fuel and a sprayer....

    http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1895293

    here's the thread with the guy from pro-imports responding to questions and stuff. This is before they hit the "296" mark but they have a run on there with 284whp (310ish crank).

    "The OriginalOutperforms Every Cold Air on the Market

    AEM pioneered the Cold Air induction system for sport compact cars in 1995. Our Cold Air systems are dyno-proven to create more useable power than any other system of their kind. AEM proudly manufactures and assembles its air induction systems in the USA."

    Hmmm says dyno proven but AEM doesn't have the dynos on their site to back it up. Pro-imports had multiple dynos of multiple runs.

    You know what, I bet they're dynoing a 1.8t with a t3/t4 turbo and just telling everyone it's a k0420. That way people will buy it, put it on their cars, and have it dyno at only 240whp. I could see them getting away with it because customers wouldn't be upset and wouldn't do anything about it....yeah, that's got to be it...

  6. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aerocore
    Here's the problem I don't think you see. The only dyno we have of this setup is from the company building the setup. What you're pretty much saying is when AEM says you'll make 15hp off of their CAI, you're completely agreeing with that number.
    making 15hp crank is very possible with well designed intake system. i know some people working at injen and afe inatake, and guess what? they always make sure what's the gain from the intake with their dyno. every time. before i had a chance to visit the factory, i was just like you not believing in an intake would give even 10hp. but after seeing their equipments and dyno tests (my friend offered his car as prototype), i knew they were serious what they were doing. and no BS. so. it's just my experience. My friend's z4 3.0 gained 11whp and 14lb of torque on mustang dyno..

  7. #36
    Registered User wizzman's Avatar
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    ^All true however on the 1.8t, much like the wrx, intakes don't yield any mesureable power gain on the stock turbo.
    Last edited by wizzman; 07-13-2005 at 09:28 AM.

  8. #37
    Registered User Aerocore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbguy7
    making 15hp crank is very possible with well designed intake system. i know some people working at injen and afe inatake, and guess what? they always make sure what's the gain from the intake with their dyno. every time. before i had a chance to visit the factory, i was just like you not believing in an intake would give even 10hp. but after seeing their equipments and dyno tests (my friend offered his car as prototype), i knew they were serious what they were doing. and no BS. so. it's just my experience. My friend's z4 3.0 gained 11whp and 14lb of torque on mustang dyno..
    Obviously you missed the point, I was using that as an example. Sorry for my slanderous comments towards AEM, I'll go ahead and change that to 25hp from a Cone Filter provided by APC. Is that better?
    2003 VW GTI 1.8T - Bolt-on City!!!!
    1991 Acura NSX - Stock
    http://www.sportcompactracing.com/vb...=getimage&id=5

  9. #38
    Registered User Aerocore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YZFWV
    240whp is average for a k04. Yes. On Pump gas....

    Add RACE fuel and a sprayer....

    http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1895293

    here's the thread with the guy from pro-imports responding to questions and stuff. This is before they hit the "296" mark but they have a run on there with 284whp (310ish crank).

    "The OriginalOutperforms Every Cold Air on the Market

    AEM pioneered the Cold Air induction system for sport compact cars in 1995. Our Cold Air systems are dyno-proven to create more useable power than any other system of their kind. AEM proudly manufactures and assembles its air induction systems in the USA."

    Hmmm says dyno proven but AEM doesn't have the dynos on their site to back it up. Pro-imports had multiple dynos of multiple runs.

    You know what, I bet they're dynoing a 1.8t with a t3/t4 turbo and just telling everyone it's a k0420. That way people will buy it, put it on their cars, and have it dyno at only 240whp. I could see them getting away with it because customers wouldn't be upset and wouldn't do anything about it....yeah, that's got to be it...
    Here's the thing, FIND ME DYNOS FROM CUSTOMERS!!!! You said it yourself, the COMPANY is providing dynos. I don't know about you but I don't trust every Tom, **** and Harry who says his company's(whom I've never heard of and I've been in the VW Tuning world for 3+ years now) Turbo kit makes some outrageous amount of HP over what anyone else has EVER seen from that specific turbo and similar setup. You're defending the K04 and this Pro-Imports company as if you worked for Borg-Warner distrobution dept. I don't really see how you can believe that because ONE car has hit ~290whp using this kit that it MUST be true and you'll take their word for gold...
    2003 VW GTI 1.8T - Bolt-on City!!!!
    1991 Acura NSX - Stock
    http://www.sportcompactracing.com/vb...=getimage&id=5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aerocore
    Here's the thing, FIND ME DYNOS FROM CUSTOMERS!!!! You said it yourself, the COMPANY is providing dynos. I don't know about you but I don't trust every Tom, **** and Harry who says his company's(whom I've never heard of and I've been in the VW Tuning world for 3+ years now) Turbo kit makes some outrageous amount of HP over what anyone else has EVER seen from that specific turbo and similar setup. You're defending the K04 and this Pro-Imports company as if you worked for Borg-Warner distrobution dept. I don't really see how you can believe that because ONE car has hit ~290whp using this kit that it MUST be true and you'll take their word for gold...
    But you don't get this: A know fact-K04's make about 240whp on pump gas. Ok. Add race gas, an intercooler sprayer, and an agressive tune and what? The K04 isn't capable of making over 240whp even with adding in those factors?

    Sure if they claimed it made 370whp that would be a little far fetched, but adding RACE gas(That's not 93 octane btw) and a sprayer, and an agressive tune, 56whp is possible. Sure it might not be the most reliable thing in the world, but I'm sure it's still getting that kind of power. Their first test with the race fuel and sprayer they only grabbed 285ish whp, but they refined it and went from there. Who's to say they're not puching 25psi out of that k04? There's a company that makes a chip that runs 25 psi out of a K03. Sure it's most likely not the healthiest thing in the world for that turbo, but they're doing it...

    But if you can't believe that you can add race fuel, a really aggresive tune, an intercooler sprayer, and turn the boost up a whole hell of a lot, that you can't get a lot of power out of a turbo car, maybe you should sell your WRX and go buy a honda, where $2k will get you maybe 50whp....and that's if you're lucky

  11. #40
    Registered User Aerocore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YZFWV
    But you don't get this: A know fact-K04's make about 240whp on pump gas. Ok. Add race gas, an intercooler sprayer, and an agressive tune and what? The K04 isn't capable of making over 240whp even with adding in those factors?

    Sure if they claimed it made 370whp that would be a little far fetched, but adding RACE gas(That's not 93 octane btw) and a sprayer, and an agressive tune, 56whp is possible. Sure it might not be the most reliable thing in the world, but I'm sure it's still getting that kind of power. Their first test with the race fuel and sprayer they only grabbed 285ish whp, but they refined it and went from there. Who's to say they're not puching 25psi out of that k04? There's a company that makes a chip that runs 25 psi out of a K03. Sure it's most likely not the healthiest thing in the world for that turbo, but they're doing it...

    But if you can't believe that you can add race fuel, a really aggresive tune, an intercooler sprayer, and turn the boost up a whole hell of a lot, that you can't get a lot of power out of a turbo car, maybe you should sell your WRX and go buy a honda, where $2k will get you maybe 50whp....and that's if you're lucky
    A) Again, the Flow Characteristics of a K04 CANNOT PRODUCE ~290whp, 290whp in a FWD 1.8T accounts for give or take 315-320 crank hp. That turbo cannot flow that. It's impossible. Even if you spray the intercooler sprayer, you're not getting it. Sorry.
    B) I know the difference in octane levels of race fuel(100, 103, C16) and pump gas(87-93)
    C) I don't own a WRX. If you read my signature, I own a 2003 Volkswagen GTI 1.8T and to add to your "buy a honda" comment, I also own a 1991 Acura NSX.

    Here's another thing, notice on your so beloved dyno sheets that the HP/TQ is UNCORRECTED? Says it in big letters in the top right corner of the sheet. Now, from what I know, one could produce what looks to be a serious HP car be adjusting the Atmosphere, Temp, etc on a Dyno. Also, for a FACT I know you can do this on a DynoJet dyno. Why don't they provide SAE Corrected dyno's of their car? That would be more believeable to me being that it is the industry standard for measuring Horsepower and Torque at the wheels of an automobile...

    Have I covered all my bases? Yes, I believe I have.
    Last edited by Aerocore; 07-13-2005 at 11:08 AM.
    2003 VW GTI 1.8T - Bolt-on City!!!!
    1991 Acura NSX - Stock
    http://www.sportcompactracing.com/vb...=getimage&id=5

  12. #41
    Registered User Aerocore's Avatar
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    Also, for your own information, a K04-020's difference from a K03-053(K03S) is that the compressor housing is 7mm bigger. Do you believe 7mm could afford 100+ more HP from a car?
    2003 VW GTI 1.8T - Bolt-on City!!!!
    1991 Acura NSX - Stock
    http://www.sportcompactracing.com/vb...=getimage&id=5

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